Author Topic: Lavos and the Beginning  (Read 10322 times)

Hadriel

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2005, 12:49:23 am »
'Twas a funny ending -- I LOLed the entire time.  But the thing is, if we don't have anything they can use, why bother invading us unless they need space for manufacturing plants?

And does someone have any idea of how a ghost works, either within the realm of physics or with regards to how they use "higher" energies to completely override it?  From what we see of the Epoch, special relativity still applies in Chrono.  So how come dead people can kick it in the nuts?

GrayLensman

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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2005, 03:44:22 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
Special relativity dictates that energy with a propagation rate of c, presumably including disembodied spirits, cannot interact in real time with the physical universe.


What does relativity have to do with ghosts?

Hadriel

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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2005, 10:00:19 pm »
Quite a lot, actually.  Time slows for an object approaching c, and theoretically stops completely at c.  The only thing that does travel at precisely c is energy, which is what ghosts are presumed to be composed of.  To a consciousness present within that frozen time, the entire history of the universe, which under several theories can be said to be unending, would pass by in an instant.  No interaction in real time would be possible.  Lawrence Krauss's entry in The Physics of Star Trek on the problems with energy beings explains it a lot better than I can, but that's the jist of it.  Only given godlike powers could ghosts interact in real time, and if this were the case there would be virtually no chance of defeating them in a fight.

Another problem arises in that ghosts in Chrono, and almost every other story where they are present, are able to exert quantifiable forces on the physical world i.e. attacking party members.  Compounding this with the fact that no mechanism is known even insofar as to facilitate their existence as shown, disembodied spirits are as devastating to classic scientific principles as a goatse/tubgirl super king kamehameha AOL double spam attack is to someone's psyche.  Their composition would require a completely nonsensical type of particle.  Their bodies' constituent particles are solid enough to reflect light.  However, they do not appear to be bound closely by gravity, as many of them demonstrate flotation capabilities, again without a known mechanism, but they are bound closely enough to planetary gravity to stay generally here.  

The best thing I can think of is that, being once again rendered part of a universal consciousness by dying, they're more connected with the universe itself and can make subtle alterations to Zurvan to work as they do.  After all, when the universe is a giant dream, anything can happen.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2005, 11:45:18 pm »
Ghosts are supernatural or metaphysical entities, and knowing nothing of their physical properties, I wouldn't attempt to describe their behaviour using modern physics.

Quote from: Hadriel
Quite a lot, actually.  Time slows for an object approaching c, and theoretically stops completely at c.  The only thing that does travel at precisely c is energy, which is what ghosts are presumed to be composed of.  To a consciousness present within that frozen time, the entire history of the universe, which under several theories can be said to be unending, would pass by in an instant.  No interaction in real time would be possible.  Lawrence Krauss's entry in The Physics of Star Trek on the problems with energy beings explains it a lot better than I can, but that's the jist of it.  Only given godlike powers could ghosts interact in real time, and if this were the case there would be virtually no chance of defeating them in a fight.


First of all energy is a physical property, not a tangible substance.  For example: a particle has energy; a force field (see below) has energy.  By definition, there is not such thing as pure energy.

Light is a particle/waveform which has a quantified amount of energy depending on its wavelength.  The speed of light in a vacuum is about 3*10^8 m/s, which is the cosmic speed-limit.  As you stated, as an object approaches c, time slows down.  This is troublesome for any object with no mass, which would travel at light speed.  

I don't think a spirit could be made out of light because waves pass through each other with no reaction, making it impossible to from a cohesive system.  (Photons do not collide)  Thus, the time dilation of a light-based entity is not of concern.

My theory is that the ghosts seen in the chrono series are made up of an exotic form of matter, or matter which exists in another spatial dimension and weakly interacts with normal space-time.  Such an entity would have mass, so there would not be any relativistic considerations.

Quote from: Hadriel
Another problem arises in that ghosts in Chrono, and almost every other story where they are present, are able to exert quantifiable forces on the physical world i.e. attacking party members.  Compounding this with the fact that no mechanism is known even insofar as to facilitate their existence as shown, disembodied spirits are as devastating to classic scientific principles as a goatse/tubgirl super king kamehameha AOL double spam attack is to someone's psyche.  Their composition would require a completely nonsensical type of particle.  Their bodies' constituent particles are solid enough to reflect light.  However, they do not appear to be bound closely by gravity, as many of them demonstrate flotation capabilities, again without a known mechanism, but they are bound closely enough to planetary gravity to stay generally here.  

The best thing I can think of is that, being once again rendered part of a universal consciousness by dying, they're more connected with the universe itself and can make subtle alterations to Zurvan to work as they do.  After all, when the universe is a giant dream, anything can happen.


Ghosts may weakly interact with normal space-time.  An incorporeal entity does not have to be in physical contact with an object to react with it.  Force fields (electromagnetic, strong, weak, gravitational, etc) exert forces on objects which are not physically touching.  Ghosts can radiate because they are visible.  I'm not sure there is a case of reflection in the series.

Hadriel

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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2005, 11:25:34 am »
As I said, Krauss explains it better than I can.  I probably misstepped somewhere along the line.  "Pure energy" beings are a common sci-fi and fantasy cliche without any real physical consideration behind them.  I'm aware that there's no such thing as pure energy and that it's a physical property, but light behaves much differently from other "substances" and thus warrants different treatment as far as its quantifiable energy goes -- light alone possesses none of the types of energy seen in matter.

Bosonic particles are able to occupy the same space at the same time, but I'm not entirely sure if they're not able to react with each other.  But as far as ghostly force fields go, that may be approaching a good explanation, but GARAI SMASH!!!1!!!1!!!1!!!! doesn't look or act like a force field.

That theory of ghostly existence sounds a lot like Diablo or Final Fantasy VII's Lifestream, where separate realms interact with the one we know to produce magical effects.

I had a friend once who claimed to have met an archangel and talked with him -- specifically Azrael, the Angel of Death.  Force knows I'd love to put that under a test tube.  I would say she's a little nutsy, but given that my dream last night, the first one I remember in a while, was a strange combination of Due South, Star Wars, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, and my own twisted life, I've got no room to talk.

Daniel Krispin

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2005, 01:15:42 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
I had a friend once who claimed to have met an archangel and talked with him -- specifically Azrael, the Angel of Death.  Force knows I'd love to put that under a test tube.  I would say she's a little nutsy, but given that my dream last night, the first one I remember in a while, was a strange combination of Due South, Star Wars, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, and my own twisted life, I've got no room to talk.


Wow, that's quite the odd combination.

Anyway... Azrael? I've never seen the angel of death given any name in any Biblical book - I suppose it may be in the Apocrypha, which I do not know. Is it? Because so far as I know, the only ones ever named are Michael and Gabriel. And 'angel' is only an interpretation anyway for 'messenger' (aggelos, where the double gamma gives the ng sound of English.) Thus any angel of death would simply be the 'messenger of death'... needless to say, that would be a frightening herald to speak to.

Hadriel

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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2005, 02:38:59 pm »
I've heard that the name Azrael is Muslim in origin -- which is very odd, because it fits with the -ael -iel scheme of angel names and because the person is a devout Christian.  It might be the Apocrypha -- I don't know, either, because I've never read it.

The dream, I think, primarily stemmed from my viewing/playing choices before bed.  That and I'd gone almost cold turkey on medication, but Mom forced it down me.  I want to get away from home ASAP, but money, as always, is an issue.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2005, 06:55:16 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
As I said, Krauss explains it better than I can.  I probably misstepped somewhere along the line.  "Pure energy" beings are a common sci-fi and fantasy cliche without any real physical consideration behind them.  I'm aware that there's no such thing as pure energy and that it's a physical property, but light behaves much differently from other "substances" and thus warrants different treatment as far as its quantifiable energy goes -- light alone possesses none of the types of energy seen in matter.


Could you quote some of Krauss' explaination?

Quote from: Hadriel
Bosonic particles are able to occupy the same space at the same time, but I'm not entirely sure if they're not able to react with each other.  But as far as ghostly force fields go, that may be approaching a good explanation, but GARAI SMASH!!!1!!!1!!!1!!!! doesn't look or act like a force field.


No, electromagnetic waves will pass through each other completely unchanged.

Every force is transmitted by force fields.  The impact of a sword is the electromagnetic repulsion between the atoms of the sword and the target.  The physical and chemical properties of the sword are determined by the electromagnetic forces acting between its atoms, and the strong and weak forces acting within the atomic nuclei.  Atoms and subatomic particles, being point masses, do not come into direct contact.

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2005, 08:29:57 pm »
Well Garai was not destroyed, he merely ended the fight. So maybe he was just testing Radius's strength, seeing if he was worthy of taking the Einlanzer.

Hadriel

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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2005, 05:10:05 am »
Then again, light is a bit nonsensical itself, since it requires no medium like other waves -- hence the photon, and in turn the larger classification of boson, was theorized.

Quote from: GrayLensman

Could you quote some of Krauss' explaination?


OK.  First, Krauss explains Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism and the following implication that electromagnetic waves exist.  We of course know v = f * lambda with regards to wave velocity, and if it's a wave then that formula should be applicable to it.  Using that formula on EM waves, Maxwell got a speed of c and pretty much ended the particle/wave debate.  Then he moves to Einstein's realization that the only way all EM waves can travel at the speed of light is if the speed of light remains the same regardless of the observer, hence the name relativity.  Here's the actual quote:

"By the same token, not just light but all massless radiation must travel at lightspeed.  This means that the many types of beings of "pure energy" encountered by the Enterprise, and later by the Voyager, would have difficulty existing as shown.  In the first place, they wouldn't be able to sit still.  Light cannot be slowed down, let alone stopped in empty space.  In the second place, any form of intelligent-energy being (such as the "photonic" energy beings in the Voyager series, the energy beings in the Beta Renna cloud in The Next Generation, the Zetarians in the original series, and the Dal'Rok in Deep Space Nine) which is constrained to travel at the speed of light, would have clocks that are infinitely slowed compared to our own.  The entire history of the universe would pass by in a single instant.  If energy beings could experience anything, they would experience everything at once.  Needless to say, before they could actually interact with corporeal beings the corporeal beings would be long dead."

The first part proves that ghosts have to be made out of some other particle than light.  Dark matter, perhaps?  Its summoning and utilization is said to be a Shadow ability -- theoretically, introducing enough dark matter into a person or object will exert enough antigravitic force to tear it apart painfully, hence the attack's extreme damage.  Enough antigravity emitted by an object could conceivably render an object invisible, or nearly so.  However, it would take an extraordinary amount of antigravity to accomplish this, considering that according to Krauss the gravitic force at the surface of the sun is sufficient to bend light by a fraction of a degree so small I'm not willing to type out all the zeros to accommodate it.

The bit about experiencing everything at once also comprises the only factual basis for out-of-body experiences.  

Quote from: GrayLensman

No, electromagnetic waves will pass through each other completely unchanged.

Every force is transmitted by force fields.  The impact of a sword is the electromagnetic repulsion between the atoms of the sword and the target.  The physical and chemical properties of the sword are determined by the electromagnetic forces acting between its atoms, and the strong and weak forces acting within the atomic nuclei.  Atoms and subatomic particles, being point masses, do not come into direct contact.


Exactly -- however, no currently known particle can both do this normally and exhibit the properties we see in ghosts.

We know one thing now: ghosts aren't made of light or any wave claiming c as its velocity.  The Lavos in the Tesseract, however, is presumably a spirit form of some sort.  I'd guess that now we need a section on the physics of the Tesseract with regards to entities.

TuRtLe

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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2005, 09:09:25 pm »
Well, if you want to go into the String Theory, it's possible that ghosts are just a new way the strings interact in all of their dimensions. Or the theory of the universe being one ginormous string stretched out to near infinity and parallel universes etc etc. That could be a good explanation for ghosts and the alternate dimensions in CC. Reading all this kinda makes me wonder if the writers and developers had all this in mind when they made the games or if it's just over analyzation by fanatical fans.

teh Schala

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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2005, 02:03:53 pm »
This may have already been said, but I didn't read all 3 pages, just the first one...  I just wanted to make a comment on my thoughts regarding Lavos.

It was interesting what was said earlier about the Frozen Flame being like the Ring...  Kind of makes me wonder if Lavos wasn't so much like Sauron, but more like the Nazgul.  That is, the Nazgul were GIVEN their Rings, and succombed to the temptation of power.

In that sense, Lavos could have simply been an alien being (the humanoid creature you find at the core) who was tempted by the Frozen Flame's power, took it (or was given it), and it corrupted him.  Its power may have allowed the giant shell-like thing to grow on him, and he sort of would have mutated into what we know as Lavos.

I know that's far-fetched, but hey, it's a thought.  Also, regarding Starky...  We can't really discount his knowledge of Lavos.  He may have come from another world which Lavos already destroyed.  Humans couldn't escape earth on the Day Of Lavos due to technology limits, but Starky's race very well could have.

Just food for thought.  It's something to chew on, eh? :)

jotabe1789

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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2005, 02:47:37 am »
Just clearing up some things :wink:

When we talk about pure energy, usually we are thinking about EM waves. Actually, those EM waves (any energy, actually) can be woven. Well, better say that could be woven if we knew how. The particle interaction can be "entagled", making them to keep their quatum states. If you want to have ghosts, here is your best bet (this is the property they want to exploit to get quantum computers, btw). Ideally you would be able to entagle photons themselves... if you had a being created by this entaglement, even thought the photons wouldn't be the same along its existance, the structure would remain: the photons would move still at the speed of light, but the being could stay stationary.

Bosonic particles can go into condensed state precise because, under certain conditions, quantum mechanics determine they will become "transparent" to each other, that is, no interacting at all. So nothing prevents them from occupying the most stable state, that is, lowest energy state.

Also, actually, forces are transmitted, not by fields, but by interaction carrier particles: photons, gravitons, gluons and bosons W+,W-,Z0. Force fields would be just a measurement of the flux of these particles in every point of the space.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2005, 01:27:47 pm »
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
This may have already been said, but I didn't read all 3 pages, just the first one...  I just wanted to make a comment on my thoughts regarding Lavos.

It was interesting what was said earlier about the Frozen Flame being like the Ring...  Kind of makes me wonder if Lavos wasn't so much like Sauron, but more like the Nazgul.  That is, the Nazgul were GIVEN their Rings, and succombed to the temptation of power.

In that sense, Lavos could have simply been an alien being (the humanoid creature you find at the core) who was tempted by the Frozen Flame's power, took it (or was given it), and it corrupted him.  Its power may have allowed the giant shell-like thing to grow on him, and he sort of would have mutated into what we know as Lavos.

I know that's far-fetched, but hey, it's a thought.  Also, regarding Starky...  We can't really discount his knowledge of Lavos.  He may have come from another world which Lavos already destroyed.  Humans couldn't escape earth on the Day Of Lavos due to technology limits, but Starky's race very well could have.

Just food for thought.  It's something to chew on, eh? :)


Still like Sauron, then, or perhaps Melkor. The former was himself tempted by a greater lord, the Vala Melkor. The latter became darkened of mind before the beginning (and drew many other of the lesser Ainur into his burning wrath with him) because of his desire to bring to life things of his own thought, and for timeless ages wandered away from the dwellings of the Ainur in the halls of Iluvatar, across the void seeking for the Flame Imperishable - which he could not find because it was with Iluvatar. It was this desire that drove him to bring discordant melodies of his own into the Song.

AuraTwilight

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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2005, 03:24:17 pm »
This stuff about ghosts and physics is ridiculous. They're GHOSTS! Who said they had to be made out of any sort of energy at all. They can be in some ethereal realm outside reality and be manipulating the minds of mortals psionically to create an illusion that they're pseudo-tangible beings.

I'm going nowhere near the Lavos=Sauron stuff XD does that make Serge Frodo?