Author Topic: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism  (Read 11029 times)

Ramsus

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 03:59:46 pm »
Considering all the other crazy beliefs people ascribe to themselves on the basis of their desired self image and who they associate (or want to associate) with, especially in regards to the opposite sex, religion doesn't really stand out to me as anything special.

I think the big problem is that a lot of people just aren't inclined to honestly and critically evaluate all of their beliefs. In fact, a lot of people have already decided on their answer for something before they've even thought about it, and then when they evaluate it, it's not to find an answer but to justify the one they want to say.

Truth is, once something becomes personally ingrained and identified with, it will be defended to the death by most people.

Katie Skyye

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 06:50:11 pm »
For many religions, it is the same as when Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Buddha dictated it to its followers. It is antiquated, and the only purpose it serves is distracting people from a lucid existence and justifying ignorance and evil acts.

Buddhism =/= Religion

It is treated that way but some of its practitioners, however...

Lord J Esq

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 07:20:47 pm »
Religious faith creates justification in the minds of believers, but it is the human mind that craves justification. People will follow anything that can provide that justification, be it religious faith or politics or science.

You have missed the point here, which is not that people seek to justify their actions, but that religion provides an especially dangerous short circuit to justification.

If religion is bunk, as you have essentially claimed in the past, then the injustices committed entirely outside of religion as fundamentally similar to the injustices committed inside (partially or fully) of religion. The two are the same and a distinction between the two may be counterproductive. Injustice is injustice, be it in China or Washington, the lab or the pulpit. To separate the two seems like you are trying to excuse one or the other (though I'm not sure which) so some degree of blame.

Not at all. I mentioned the existence of the other merely so as not to be charged that I have implied its nonexistence.

Just to note, atheism just says that there's no god.

Incorrect. Atheism can indicate that, yes, but it does not necessarily indicate that. It can also indicate a disbelief in a specific divinity, as opposed to all divinity. Most people are atheists in that sense. Furthermore, atheism can indicate a rejection of the premise of a divine premise. This is why some atheists will tell you that theirs is not a "belief system." In that usage, their atheism is an absence of faith rather than a rejection of it.

What we have here is a confusion of multiple conditions pressed into a single word. Let me give you my own example of these three instances of atheism:

The first form of atheism is what I call, in my philosophy, cosmic atheism. It is a belief system, inasmuch as its conclusion is unverifiable. This is the atheism you were talking about, but does not come close to comprising all atheists. I'm not an atheist in this sense. I'm a cosmic agnostic: I don't know.

The second form of atheism is what I call, in my philosophy, situational or conversational atheism. This is not a belief system. It is a considered judgment. Having been presented with a specific divine premise--let's say Christianity--the conversational atheist weighs the evidence and concludes that the arguments in favor are unpersuasive, and rejects that divine premise. I know enough about the three Abrahamic religions, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca, and Taoism to reject each of their respective divine premises. So I am an atheist with respect to those religions. People in those religions--and this is where your mistake originates--would thus classify me simply as "an atheist," without qualifiers, because from their perspective anyone who rejects their god is an atheist and that's the end of the story. But that is, as you should be able to see, the bias of the observer at work. I am only an atheist in this sense with regard to those religions that I know well enough to judge.

There is thus an offshoot of the second form of atheism, which could be considered a generalization system--i.e., a prejudice--by which an individual rejects other divine premises without being able to competently judge them. This enables a person to reject all matemade religions explicitly, without studying each of them in turn. It is, like any prejudice, prone to error. However, it is not a belief system per se, as prejudice can function without belief. I would, for better or worse, consider myself prejudiced against the divine premise of any religion I have yet to evaluate...although I am always open to a proper judicial process when the need arises.

The third form of atheism is not something that I refer to as "atheism" in my own philosophy. It is a rejection of the terms by which a divine premise is presented. This kind of an atheist would say, to anyone who proposes a divine premise: "You have not adequately defined what 'god' is. Your terms are nonsensical. You have not provided me with an evaluable proposition. Thus I cannot engage the matter." This kind of atheism is most certainly not a belief system. Indeed, it is a particularly responsible position to take--almost an opposite of belief--because it refuses to overextend itself in the consideration of a proposition. It is also a very powerful form of atheism to wield against certain religious arguments which design themselves to be inscrutable.

None of these three forms of atheism should be confused with agnosticism, with irreligiosity, or with unbelief. But I say that merely for completeness rather than to school you, since you probably already know.

Considering all the other crazy beliefs people ascribe to themselves...religion doesn't really stand out to me as anything special. ... Truth is, once something becomes personally ingrained and identified with, it will be defended to the death by most people.

You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. Heh. The reason religion very much is "anything special" is that religion is the form to which many of the most "crazy beliefs" evolve. There have been many movements, subcultures, and theories in our history that a Christian might not consider a religion but that I would. This is given by my concept of the divine premise, around which religions constitute. People who believe in something enough to kill for it--and I do use the word "belief" here very explicitly--are likely to have organized the object of their belief religiously. Religion provides an individual with irrefutable authority, with justification, with rightness, certitude, even community in many instances.

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to think of "religion" as the boss form of an ordinary belief object. That would provide an a priori explanation for how overzealous beliefs are religious in nature.

Buddhism =/= Religion

Actual Buddhism very much is a religion, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or ignorant. There is a vogue here in the West, however, to practice "Buddhist" behaviors such as restraint and meditation. If these behaviors are separated from any claims of authority over human nature or the Cosmos, then they are not religious. But, most of the time, these pseudo-Buddhists will enthusiastically assert a religious or "spiritual" significance to the behaviors, in which case the behaviors remain religious--although not necessarily "Buddhist" in the traditional sense.

Thought

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 10:51:20 am »
You have missed the point here, which is not that people seek to justify their actions, but that religion provides an especially dangerous short circuit to justification.

Short-cut, not short circuit.

Justification is sort of like hunger and thirst, it is a primary human need. Religion is thus like a microwave dinner, satisfying that hunger easily. Thing is, take that away and all you take away is a convenience. The underlying need is still there, and so the underlying need will be satisfied. If that satisfaction of this need is good or bad is irrelevant.

Take away religion and you will find the exact same crimes get committed, just with different tools being used to provide justification.

UFOs are a lovely example of this. Used to be people favored "religious" justification, and so it was angels and demons that people saw. Now, people favor "scientific" justification, and so they see greys and lizardmen.

The only partial-remedy for the dangers of this need is schism. Anytime a large group of individuals believe in a particular thing, that thing can be exploited. The more groups there are, the fewer people will be able to be in each, and thus the less damage each can do when they get exploited.

Lord J Esq

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 07:52:23 pm »
Take away religion and you will find the exact same crimes get committed, just with different tools being used to provide justification.

Even if that were completely true--which can't be the case since some injustices are unique to religion--that's still no reason to not "take away religion" as you put it, or, as I might put it, educate people out of religion. Here in Seattle, a couple of years ago they limited the sale of cheap fortified beer in certain problematic areas of the city. Some people still got their drinks, but not as many, and not as often...and that made a difference even if it didn't solve everything and lead to a perfect society.

The only partial-remedy for the dangers of this need is schism. Anytime a large group of individuals believe in a particular thing, that thing can be exploited. The more groups there are, the fewer people will be able to be in each, and thus the less damage each can do when they get exploited.

That's an interesting idea. Would you elaborate on your reasoning?

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 11:19:07 pm »
I think what he means is that the larger a group is the easier it is to notice its flaws. I guess something like...
Something uncommon and something very common. When an ordinary person commits a crime, they'll apprehend him and give him a trial. When a religious person commits a crime in the name of religion, they'd not only apprehend him but also put his entire religion to shame, perhaps going so far as to use the media to enrage the people to go against his entire race.

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Take away religion and you will find the exact same crimes get committed, just with different tools being used to provide justification.
This is what I've been wanting to say all along. The whole atheism vs theism is completely pointless. Even if there IS a higher power around they're probably laughing at us for arguing over mundane matters as such which might never solve anything. In fact, the ACTUAL ignorance and evil lies DEEP WITHIN mankind, not just the outer and empty shells that are atheism/theism.

Why did I include Atheism as "evil"? If crimes influenced by religion make religion evil, then crimes influenced by atheism make atheism evil. Saw the news a few days ago, a temple of Sikhs was burned by atheists. Sikh religion has never been so offensive, or at least I've never seen their customs making them offensive. So WHY pick on innocent people and their belief? Whatever happened to Live and let live?

Lord J Esq

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2010, 11:53:24 pm »
Why did I include Atheism as "evil"? If crimes influenced by religion make religion evil, then crimes influenced by atheism make atheism evil. Saw the news a few days ago, a temple of Sikhs was burned by atheists. Sikh religion has never been so offensive, or at least I've never seen their customs making them offensive. So WHY pick on innocent people and their belief? Whatever happened to Live and let live?

Logical fallacy. By the three forms of atheism I gave above, only the first one is a positive declaration of position (and even then this is not an inherent property and thus there could be exceptions). One cannot be influenced by a negative declaration of position, because it is in fact an absence of position.

In a way, this is all semantics. You say "atheism" but mean something like "irreligion." However, in practical terms it isn't as simple as you getting a word wrong: It's you buying in to an entire system of premises that is also wrong, which sets up atheism as "a religion of nonreligion," which is a straw man argument from the start and a corrupting influence on any thought process that broaches this area.

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2010, 05:49:49 pm »

Lord J, your three forms of atheism are a variation of Equivocation, giving it more than one meaning or sense by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time.  In this case, your definitions focus more on the semantic shift of the word itself depending on the context it is being used in.  I could even say that your definitions are a form of Loki's Wager.  Which definition specifically applies to you?

On a different note...

You stated earlier that you were a cosmic agnostic.  Is this based upon your current possession of human knowledge?  

Let's assume that humanity possessed at least 1% of all the knowledge of the universe.  How much of that human knowledge do you personally possess?  Probably less than 1/10,000th of a percent.  Based upon what you don't know, how can you claim to know that any god (in this case, the Christian God) does not exist? Is it possible that God could exist outside the limits of your knowledge? If you think that there is the possibility that God might exist, that is agnosticism.

Mind you that I cannot personally prove the existence of God, but there are many a scientist out there who would deliver to you cosmological evidence for the existence of God.  What says you?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 02:01:26 pm by GenesisOne »

ShoeMagus

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2010, 01:59:07 am »


If they have flaws, then they are "evil", as ignorance pertains to evil. Religion prescribes entire lifestyles using flawed systems, facilitating acts of evil in its adherents. We can say the system of religion itself is evil, as is faith.


I find myself in a strange position because I don't necessarily like the religions of the world, but can't help but end up defending them when I see reasoning that seems to be poor. How do you define "evil" without religion? Religion argues for objective standards for Good and Evil grounding them in God,karma, or whatever. If you reject religions, then what standard do you have for good and evil? Are you arguing a personal standard or are you suggesting that something is actually deciding morality?

I don't think religions were created to deliberately foster ignorance. I think many religions (including the earliest forms of Cave Bear cults and things) seem to be attempts at explaining the world and/or controlling it. Now of course we have science. For some people, this is not enough and they attempt to fill in what isn't currently explained with religion, or look to religion for spiritual guidance/morality. I'm not saying that religions are necessarily the best places to look for any of these things, but I don't think that all of them exist solely to foster stupidity.

I think even in a world of atheism, there would still be a truckload of ignorance and bigotry in the world. It might be a little more of an honest world (I'm sure people still think the Crusades were about religion), but it would still be filled to the brim with all the horrors we're plagued with. People do sick and terrifying things to each other. They're ignorant, savage, and really sometimes the best thing for many people is to be controlled.

So religion may not be the greatest thing ever, but it's not the source of all the world's problems. Incidentally, I'm very religious. I'm just not an idiot.

ZeaLitY

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2010, 02:05:04 am »


If they have flaws, then they are "evil", as ignorance pertains to evil. Religion prescribes entire lifestyles using flawed systems, facilitating acts of evil in its adherents. We can say the system of religion itself is evil, as is faith.


I find myself in a strange position because I don't necessarily like the religions of the world, but can't help but end up defending them when I see reasoning that seems to be poor. How do you define "evil" without religion? Religion argues for objective standards for Good and Evil grounding them in God,karma, or whatever. If you reject religions, then what standard do you have for good and evil? Are you arguing a personal standard or are you suggesting that something is actually deciding morality?

Morality and ethics can be determined by many metrics, self-made or from philosophical theory. Religious morals are often the product of antiquity, with sexism, prejudice, and other brutal forms of ignorance rooted in them.

Quote
I don't think religions were created to deliberately foster ignorance. I think many religions (including the earliest forms of Cave Bear cults and things) seem to be attempts at explaining the world and/or controlling it. Now of course we have science. For some people, this is not enough and they attempt to fill in what isn't currently explained with religion, or look to religion for spiritual guidance/morality. I'm not saying that religions are necessarily the best places to look for any of these things, but I don't think that all of them exist solely to foster stupidity.

Yeah, that's why they were created; they conveniently explained phenomena (a wizard did it) while providing cures for fears about death or sadness over loss. It's troublesome when these people who look to religion to fill in the answers become part of institutionalized ignorance and hatred, and perpetuate this in turn. What prevents these people from accepting that they don't know, but hoping to find out? Are they so impatient that, beyond the very fun activity of thinking about the nature of the universe and forming their own theories about existence, have to accept some fabricated dogma? Are they so desperate that they're willing to stake their entire lives and all the meaning of living on beliefs that could possibly be wrong? It takes courage and maturity to say, "I don't know all the answers. But I'm curious, and I'm going to find out with humanity."

Quote
I think even in a world of atheism, there would still be a truckload of ignorance and bigotry in the world. It might be a little more of an honest world (I'm sure people still think the Crusades were about religion), but it would still be filled to the brim with all the horrors we're plagued with. People do sick and terrifying things to each other. They're ignorant, savage, and really sometimes the best thing for many people is to be controlled.

Of course, andd in a world of religion, there is even more ignorance and bigotry than there would be in a world of atheism. Religion has to go for humanity to move forward. It holds back growth and organizes ignorance. People would grow much faster if they weren't taught outdated moral codes that institutionalize and encourage prejudice, elitism, sexism, violence, and other forms of ignorance. Why take these evils and give them added power through religion?

ShoeMagus

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 02:40:18 am »


If they have flaws, then they are "evil", as ignorance pertains to evil. Religion prescribes entire lifestyles using flawed systems, facilitating acts of evil in its adherents. We can say the system of religion itself is evil, as is faith.


I find myself in a strange position because I don't necessarily like the religions of the world, but can't help but end up defending them when I see reasoning that seems to be poor. How do you define "evil" without religion? Religion argues for objective standards for Good and Evil grounding them in God,karma, or whatever. If you reject religions, then what standard do you have for good and evil? Are you arguing a personal standard or are you suggesting that something is actually deciding morality?

Morality and ethics can be determined by many metrics, self-made or from philosophical theory. Religious morals are often the product of antiquity, with sexism, prejudice, and other brutal forms of ignorance rooted in them.

Quote
I don't think religions were created to deliberately foster ignorance. I think many religions (including the earliest forms of Cave Bear cults and things) seem to be attempts at explaining the world and/or controlling it. Now of course we have science. For some people, this is not enough and they attempt to fill in what isn't currently explained with religion, or look to religion for spiritual guidance/morality. I'm not saying that religions are necessarily the best places to look for any of these things, but I don't think that all of them exist solely to foster stupidity.

Yeah, that's why they were created; they conveniently explained phenomena (a wizard did it) while providing cures for fears about death or sadness over loss. It's troublesome when these people who look to religion to fill in the answers become part of institutionalized ignorance and hatred, and perpetuate this in turn. What prevents these people from accepting that they don't know, but hoping to find out? Are they so impatient that, beyond the very fun activity of thinking about the nature of the universe and forming their own theories about existence, have to accept some fabricated dogma? Are they so desperate that they're willing to stake their entire lives and all the meaning of living on beliefs that could possibly be wrong? It takes courage and maturity to say, "I don't know all the answers. But I'm curious, and I'm going to find out with humanity."

Quote
I think even in a world of atheism, there would still be a truckload of ignorance and bigotry in the world. It might be a little more of an honest world (I'm sure people still think the Crusades were about religion), but it would still be filled to the brim with all the horrors we're plagued with. People do sick and terrifying things to each other. They're ignorant, savage, and really sometimes the best thing for many people is to be controlled.

Of course, andd in a world of religion, there is even more ignorance and bigotry than there would be in a world of atheism. Religion has to go for humanity to move forward. It holds back growth and organizes ignorance. People would grow much faster if they weren't taught outdated moral codes that institutionalize and encourage prejudice, elitism, sexism, violence, and other forms of ignorance. Why take these evils and give them added power through religion?

People don't accept the hard realities of life because then they would realize the existential horrors that their lives are. Some people's only comfort is the foolish idea of an afterlife. It makes the bottom feeders happy to send ten dollars to a televangelist and feel like they're part of something bigger.

There's plenty of prejudice, sexism, and violence without religion. It would still be there, the purveyors would just have to decide on a new way to justify it. Pick any religiously motivated violence in history. 9/11? Is it because they're Muslim and their faith tells them to kill themselves and as many other people? No, that's nowhere in the Qu'ran. They're leaders tell them too because they hate the West. Terrorists leaders see the excess here in America, the waste, and hate Americans for it. There was an Egyptian terrorist who had been in Colorado or somewhere in the sixties (I'm doing this from obscure memory so exact details might be off), watching people use gallons of water to wash their cars. Imagine coming from a land where people suffer and die because they're thirsty, places where water is more valuable than gold, and you might be able to imagine how outrageous and horrible America would seem. Not to mention constant interference in the Middle East's affairs.

See? There's enough reasons already for these people to commit violent, horrible acts. Religion just provides an excuse, an easy motivation, and a nice way to comfort people who drive planes into buildings. Do you think that they couldn't be convinced without religion? There would just as much horror in the world. It wouldn't be a less ignorant, more tolerant world. It would be exactly the same. The Communists all claim to be Atheist, and Stalin killed what might very well be 60 million people. Fascinating isn't it?

I know all the religionists bring up Stalin, but it's a fair point. Do I blame all atheists for Stalin's actions? No, because I understand that some people really don't need excuses to be insane. Some do, but they can be found really easily. I read about a practice in some Muslim country where terrorists groups would rape women in order to dishonor them and then offer them the opportunity to regain honor by becoming suicide bombers. It's clever and horrible and has no real basis in religion.

What makes you think people wouldn't still hold to antiquated and insane ideas without religion? Or that they would create them anyway? Look at White Power movements. The KKK often uses Christian overtones. The Christian Identity movement as a whole is pretty scary. But then there's the Creativity Movement which uses Pagan elements. Do you think these people need religion to hate other races? Skinhead rhetoric cites the other races taking opportunities and jobs through affirmative action, the so called innocent white people getting denied and the future of the "white race" being threatened. Do you think that these idiots would be any smarter because of a lack of religion? They might not be burdened with the idea of God. But they would still be unable to draw intelligent conclusions and would still blame other people for the fact that they don't have the drive and ability to get ahead.

If morality and ethics are created by human beings (which they are!), then there will always be an idiot who thinks that it's okay to subjugate women, destroy minorities, steal, murder, rape, etc. I used to blame religion for things, but I had something of a "moment of clarity" and realized that people are just insane. I still think many religions are stupid, collections of moral codes that are both outdated and barbaric (put children to death who disrespect their parents!), but the phenomenon of Religion is not really adding to the world's problems.

ZeaLitY

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 02:07:57 pm »
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People don't accept the hard realities of life because then they would realize the existential horrors that their lives are. Some people's only comfort is the foolish idea of an afterlife. It makes the bottom feeders happy to send ten dollars to a televangelist and feel like they're part of something bigger.

Yes. And that behavior does not belong in illuminated humanity. The televangelists are taking advantage of them. I believe that every human has a great chance at taking responsibility for their own life and having a meaningful life. We have sentience; we can shape our destinies.

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See? There's enough reasons already for these people to commit violent, horrible acts. Religion just provides an excuse, an easy motivation, and a nice way to comfort people who drive planes into buildings.

Congratulations, you agree with my point! Religion aggravates ignorance and makes evil much more potent! Since it appears a lot of people have the wrong idea about what I'm saying:

ZEALITY'S CLARIFICATION

I do not think that religion is the source of humanity's frailties, ignorance, and evil. However, it does organize, facilitate, and encourage ignorance, and thus removing it would significantly help humanity on the way to improving itself.

tushantin

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2010, 02:46:38 am »
Morality and ethics can be determined by many metrics, self-made or from philosophical theory. Religious morals are often the product of antiquity, with sexism, prejudice, and other brutal forms of ignorance rooted in them.
What I find strange in you is that often brag about the evil of ignorance while at the same time you TOO refuse to see various directions and aspects of... well, everything. Because when I asked you step to asia and take a look at "religion" from within it seemed like you were too scared to experience or not interested in it and stuck to your belief while remaining ignorant of various status of customs and families here.

Your generalization does not justify the follies of religion accurately because you have not proven to me how they're different from various other organizations and humanity as whole WITHOUT religion. Neither do you know what are the current situation of religion and religious family in other parts of the world other than where you get your information from flawed/incomplete sources. And you make assumptions/conclusions by taking only little incriminating things into account and not looking at the picture as whole.

Maybe you're right. Maybe religion should be abolished. But then what? I can guarantee you that the "evil" you speak of will remain even after that. And thus, such arguments are merely laughable when you think of it. You're just wasting your time. Rape, brutality and ignorance has existed with humanity since before religion flourished.

I'm not going to discriminate your views on religion, because despite the flawed reasoning you are half right on one thing: a lot of crimes have been taken place in the name of religion and it has to be stopped. But I DO criticize your so called "skepticism" because it seems to be founded on ignorance itself.

I really suggest you to read the novel "Jaa Dunia Andha Chashma" by Tarak Mehta (if you have a Gujrati friend, that is). It's a satire on humanity and nations therein, on religion and family, to individualism and culture. It should open your mind a bit seeing it's a pretty intellectual and informative book.

ZeaLitY

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2010, 02:56:10 am »
Quote
Maybe you're right. Maybe religion should be abolished. But then what? I can guarantee you that the "evil" you speak of will remain even after that. And thus, such arguments are merely laughable when you think of it.

Quote
ZEALITY'S CLARIFICATION

I do not think that religion is the source of humanity's frailties, ignorance, and evil. However, it does organize, facilitate, and encourage ignorance, and thus removing it would significantly help humanity on the way to improving itself.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 02:59:35 am by ZeaLitY »

tushantin

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Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2010, 03:10:34 am »
 :lol: Quite contradicting to what you said last time we had an argument. But I'll take that as an agreement partly.

HOWEVER, your "generalization" of religion still remains incomplete. I still suggest you to take a step beyond christian sight, because in most parts I have hardly seen them facilitate or organize ignorance or "evil" for that matter. At least not here.