Author Topic: Ego death and the body switch.  (Read 2466 times)

MeshGearFox

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Ego death and the body switch.
« on: February 02, 2010, 12:38:03 am »
This is something I kind of wondered about for awhile. When Serge and Lynx switch bodies in Fort Dragonia, there is, from a strictly plot-based standpoint, this notion of equivalence. Serge and Lynx had to switch bodies because Search had drowned in one world and Lynx had died in that Dead Sea incident in the other.

But what thematic purpose did it have? It wasn't just a single flash-in-the-pale event. You play as Lynx for something like a third of the game.

I did some research on the concept of ego death late last year, and I was recently thinking that ego death could provide and interesting framework for the body switch incident, and, possibly, the nature of Serge's character as a whole.

Ego death doesn't mean actual, physical death, but rather the loss of ones sense of self -- in a sense. I don't claim to understand it fully, and there are a lot of different viewpoints about it, but one general way of looking at it is, through meditation or psychoactive drugs or some sort of trauma, losing one's sense of self, sense of separateness from ones environment, and feelings of control over ones own actions and... let's say "fate," just for fun.

What do we specifically know from the game's script? After Serge becomes Lynx, he ends up in the Cleft of Dimension, and during his escape from there, Harle has a few conversations about who he's become.

Here, you're presented with a few dialogue options. In one set, Serge initially maintains that he's Serge, and not Lynx. Harle, however, insists that nobody would believe he's Serge, and that Serge doesn't even exist in the particular world he's in. Thus, he must not be Serge.

And then she questions him on what Serge even was. This is the salient part: "Maybe for you it is evident, but... I wonder if you ever really were Serge...? Furthermore... what waz zis Serge? A figure, a shape? A spirit? A soul? Where waz zis Serge?"

I interpret this as a discussion on the illusory nature of Serge's ego. One of the dialogue options that follows in this exchange allows Serge to accept that he is Lynx. This, to me, amounts to Serge experiencing ego death.

Of course, this is really just half of it. Serge, obviously, gets his body back, and the flipside of ego death is the reformation of one's sense of self after experiencing it. There's also a couple of other themes about death and rebirth that come up a lot in the game.

One thing I do want to note is that Kato seems to have a fondness for gnostic mythology, dreamtime mythology, and Zurvanism (in some nominal sense at least).

There does seem to be a degree of overlap between the ego death, psychonaut group and the gnostic group, particularly through the idea of using ego death a as a means of achieving gnosis, although I'm not finding much concrete information about that.

tuxedojacob

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 06:37:35 pm »
The thematic purpose was FATE (as Lynx) needed to have a Serge puppet to access the frozen flame - as Serge was the arbiter and the only person who had access to it.

Interesting theory though.

MeshGearFox

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 08:30:00 pm »
"The thematic purpose was FATE (as Lynx) needed to have a Serge puppet to access the frozen flame - as Serge was the arbiter and the only person who had access to it."

No, that's the plot reason. I'm trying to look more at broader thematic reasons here. They're not the same thing, exactly.

Here's another idea. The body switch could very represent physical death and rebirth.

Serge "dies" at various points in the story. Most obviously, when he drowns would be the first time. He also, subsequently, experiences a rebirth after every death. In this particular case, it's not so much a rebirth, per se, but the dimensions forking.

The second death is harder to pinpoint, because you could either say his contact with the Frozen Flame in the Sea of Eden is a singular death and rebirth event, or that the attack from the panther demon is the death, and that the contact is the rebirth.

I think you could make a case for the first point Serge switches dimensions being a death event (Crossing over to the other side, being in a world where he no longer exists, etc). but the next big one, in any case, would be when he switches bodies with Serge.

I think there could be a them here about taking hold of destiny by confronting death. That could bear some exploring.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 05:39:52 pm by MeshGearFox »

utunnels

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 10:26:47 pm »
Yeah, I always think mind switching(or transfer) can't keep one living forever -- if you believe that mind are not individual entity like the term of soul. So when Lynx switched bodies (or mind) with Serge, you can say Serge was already dead. The new Serge in Lynx's body keeps all his memory, but he is definitely a new person. Though to a third person, he is still Serge since he knows everthing that Serge knows. The original Serge might suffer a mind-blanking period during the the switching process, and his feeling never continued(died).
That is kinda like Belthasar's Nu, who received Belthasar's memory.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 10:29:29 pm by utunnels »

tuxedojacob

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 12:56:36 am »
Oh, I mistook your thread for something I might care about.

MeshGearFox

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 06:05:28 pm »
Yeah, I always think mind switching(or transfer) can't keep one living forever -- if you believe that mind are not individual entity like the term of soul. So when Lynx switched bodies (or mind) with Serge, you can say Serge was already dead. The new Serge in Lynx's body keeps all his memory, but he is definitely a new person. Though to a third person, he is still Serge since he knows everthing that Serge knows. The original Serge might suffer a mind-blanking period during the the switching process, and his feeling never continued(died).
That is kinda like Belthasar's Nu, who received Belthasar's memory.

That's actually an interesting way of looking at that, and I'm glad you brought the Nu connection up because I'd forgotten about that.

I'd say Serge is different, because, while in the case with the Nu, it's made more apparent that Nu INHERITS Belthasar's memory, but isn't exactly Belthasar.

Serge and Lynx, on the other hand, seem to maintain their consciousness.

Or to use the term I was using earlier, Serge and Lynx maintain, initially, their egos across the body switch. Belthasar does not.

(And just to be clear, I'm using ego in the ego loss/spirituality sense, and not so much in the Freudian sense).

On the other hand, Harle is challenging Lynx about his belief that he is Serge and, more broadly, the notion of Serge as an individual personality/ego.

Looking at this from an ego death perspective, here's another way I might see this.

Belthasar, being a wiseman and thus probably enlightened, might not even have an ego to pass on to the Nu. If the ego, here, is referring to a specific, limited sense of self, Belthasar might have a more universal perspective of consciousness. No sense of "self", per se, but maybe more one of universal one-ness.

Or something.

There's also the whole Schala/Kid thing and the Lynx-is-Serge's-dad thing which I'm sort of hazy on.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 07:01:40 pm »
Oh, I mistook your thread for something I might care about.

Don't be a jerk about it. Just don't post if you don't care.





I think this is a great topic, Mesh.

I thought it would be worth noting that In Chrono Trigger, Chrono, Marle, and Robo all go through a death/rebirth sort of process as well.

Crono's is obvious, the Time Egg incident.

Marle's is obvious as well, the Grandfather Paradox she causes the first time they travel.

But Robo's two experiences are a little bit different because we can't say whether he's completely alive or not to begin with.

However, when you first find Robo, he is not operational. Lucca fixes and reprograms him quite literally. The second time is when he 'sacrifices' himself to save Fiona's Forest, and you come back to find that he needs to be switched on.

Interesting because Robo seems a bit disoriented when he is powered on for the first time, and again for a brief moment when he's switched on when you pick him up after he saved the forest. It's like he's waking up.

utunnels

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 09:16:47 pm »
IIRC, when Serge became Lynx, he maintained his Dash&Slash(?) tech.
But after he arrived Temporal Vortex, he used a swallow but got all Lynx's techs.

I know it might be gameplay-wise tricks that allow you use Lynx's techs, but isn't it easier to give a GlideHook to the scythe-wielding Lynx model than Dash&Slash? Or maybe they just want a gradual change.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 09:19:00 pm by utunnels »

MeshGearFox

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 10:34:11 pm »
Quote
Crono's is obvious, the Time Egg incident.

Yes, and eggs in general are associated with resurrection. What's interesting is that I SEEM to recall the notion of a time EGG being something Woolsey came up with. Can anyone confirm this?

(I do feel the Norstein-Bekkler stuff sort of cheapened the effect, though. The Time Egg could've reasonably just pulled him back from some ambiguous void, like what happened with Marle, without the need for the whole body switch/carnival doll thing).

Anyway, I think you could also see Frog in a similar light.

What about Lucca and Ayla, though? Lucca is obviously literally killed during CC, but she has her own weird confrontation with death during the campfire scene. Except not, because she doesn't really have a death/rebirth experience. It's just witnessing mortality in some manner.

I don't think Ayla ever really is forced to confront mortality, though? Then again, her Personal Sidequest was apparently cut, and I'm not willing to trust that whatever CT DS added back in was particularly accurate to what it was originally.

(Also the other thing I found weird about Lynx being Serge's father is that Lynx existed in the dimension where Serge died when he was like, three. Which means that either Lynx was inserted into both timelines, which doesn't really sit well with me for a number of reasons. It's subtle but there's some indications that Home Lynx, while still not really being a good guy, isn't nearly as evil as Another Lynx is. Also, if they're both pawns of FATE, I don't see why Home Lynx wouldn't have been lost along with the dragoons in the dead sea or whatever. I also get the impression that Lynx existed before that entire incident anyway, partially because Another Lynx *sounds* like he has the same consciousness as the panther demon that attacked Serge

Anyway, I take it more that FATE just hijacked Serge's dad's body in a moment of weakness and was used as some sort of biological basis for Lynx. The notion that Lynx is Serge's dad isn't really accurate because there's very clearly nothing left of Serge's dad's personality/mind/soul/whatever in Lynx).

alfadorredux

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 09:04:52 am »
   Although Wazuki managed to
   escape from Chronopolis with
   you, he later completely
   succumbed to FATE.

This is what Crono's ghost says at Opassa. The implication is that FATE had been working on Wazuki from the time that he took Serge to Chronopolis, which was before the dimensional fracture and meant that Wazuki would inevitably become Lynx in both worlds, even though he didn't completely transform until the fracture took place, as implied by Lynx's own remarks at Fort Dragonia:

   On that ominous day 10 years
   ago, the boundary of space and
   time was torn, and part of me,
   in fact, died...

We never actually meet the Home World version of Lynx. Remarks in-game by some Home World Porrean types suggest that he did go on the expedition to the Dead Sea, and never returned, although his ghost doesn't show up there. As for why... Perhaps FATE decided that he'd accomplished his purpose, and absorbed him? I don't think we ever find out for sure.

MeshGearFox

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Re: Ego death and the body switch.
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 10:58:40 pm »
Quote
The implication is that FATE had been working on Wazuki from the time that he took Serge to Chronopolis, which was before the dimensional fracture

Wait, am I getting the events backwards? I was thinking the dimensional fracture was when Serge drowned, and that that happened before the panther incident. I must have gotten that backwards, though.