Author Topic: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs  (Read 3737 times)

Dengar

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« on: September 22, 2010, 11:45:20 pm »
Scroll to the bottom if you just want the short version of this.

So we know that the Chrono Trigger team may have made some errors during the first game (Dalton and the fall of Guardia). We also know that they were fighting against an expected outcome and doing their best to defy it, which is a theme also dealt with in Chrono Cross (Dinopolis and the Dragon elements vs. humanity).

With these in mind, let's look at a few things that make Chrono Trigger lead to Chrono Cross (since, obviously, if Lavos is never defeated,

One is the time egg(s). These are fairly rare, pretty powerful, and capable of going to key areas in space and time. However, what if the first one was misused? What if only one was needed, and all of Chrono Cross could have been avoided?

Let's look at the first use: saving Crono. What makes his death an important period in time? What makes Crono worthy of being saved? Many people die in the course of the game, either directly or indirectly (lots of people in the future). Without Crono, Lavos probably would have killed everyone in the Ocean Palace. Whoever remains probably wouldn't be able to defeat Lavos. Crono is needed to take the brunt of the attack to save the others.

But after that? The game creators seem to hint that Crono dies. While there is some evidence that this isn't true, part of it may be wishful thinking. Lucca most likely died, so why not her friends? Robo makes the ultimate sacrifice as well, so the death of characters isn't too important, just what they do with their lives. Crono's life seems to have been focused around saving his friends, and afterwards, because of the time egg, he's given some extra time. There's no arguing that Crono is needed for defeating Lavos, but he's not needed in the actual battle (you are able to defeat Lavos without him, whether he's dead or you just choose not to bring him). What purpose does Crono have after his first death that isn't filled out by someone else? His sacrifice is important enough to return to, but is he the one that needed to be saved?

While in the short term, both the player and Crono's friends seem to regard Crono's life as important, but in the long term, Magus may have unknowingly hinted at another possibility: Schala.

Schala's future is what causes Chrono Cross. Schala, unlike Crono, has certain advantages in the timeline of the world. Her fusing with Lavos is much more meaningful than Crono's marriage in the long term (unless Chrono Trigger 3 comes along and proves me wrong). As much as we may love Crono, Schala may have been the better choice.

But so what? We're given the tools to save Crono. What else could have happened?

There's a few options here. The first is that, unlike Crono, Schala doesn't die. If, rather than traveling to the moment Crono dies, one were to travel to the moment Schala sends the group + Magus to the past, one could simply bring Schala back and avert the whole mess. No clone needed (in this version). Schala probably would have made as good a companion as Crono, and is also vastly more powerful, and would have helped out greatly in the battle against Lavos. Lose one person, gain another, and avert a horrible, dimension and time eating monster. Sounds fair enough.

But what if the gurus are correct, and that, whether or not someone dies, a clone is needed to take someone's place? While Norstein Bekkler may not have had a clone on hand, someone else eventually would: Lucca. What if Kid's purpose was only to replace Schala in that moment of time. What if, on some level, Lucca realized that? Is that perhaps why she began to make a time egg herself? Did she realize the group's error and try to have a back-up, in case Kid would need to make the ultimate sacrifice?

Condensed version and conclusion: Perhaps the player was not meant to use the time egg to save Crono. There was nothing in particular that was remarkable about Crono aside from his desire to protect the people he cared about, and while this is a rare trait in people, the group seemed filled with like-minded individuals. Had the group saved Schala, either by using the time egg immediately and not used a clone, or waited and used baby (or later had a grown) Kid to take her place, the events of Chrono Cross would not have needed to happen.

While this may sound sad, there's an upside: the series is about defying fate. Defying the expected. While in traditional heroic tragedies, people sacrifice themselves for others, as Crono did and what some may have wished Kid to do, the protagonists instead make a selfish decision to fight for those they care about, even if it means dooming others. It's human nature. Schala was just as heroic as Crono (if not more so) in the end, saving people she barely knew rather than saving herself, yet because he was a friend, Marle and the party save Crono. However, if the actions of Serge and his party really did reverse a lot of the "bad stuff," perhaps this is justified in the long run. Despite the suffering caused by this selfishness, is was only temporary.

Dengar

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2010, 09:00:47 pm »
I'm seeing that this has been read, but some people have had a hard time understanding this. Do I need to be more specific and clean up some sentences? Am I off base? Or has this already been discussed?

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2010, 09:55:14 pm »
I always think the usage of time egg in CT is half fantasy and half science idea.
A clone can keep the history unchanged? I highly doubt that (unless the clone is used only to replace a person in the moment of the time freeze, after that Crono is still dead but a 'copy' of him is created and the clone is gone forever).
The one to be saved must be important? It is just too subjective -- at least Dengar thinks Crono is not that important.  :lol:

Dengar

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2010, 10:04:15 pm »
Haha, well, not quite. Crono's important for what he does in that moment, but from there on, it just seems like he's like anyone else.

And yes, most of the series is half science, half fantasy (like the difference between time travel theories in the beginning, where Marle disappears despite nothing yet preventing that, vs. the end, where robo and the old guy go to a future that the player prevented). It's just fun to consider =)

maggiekarp

  • Crimson Echoes Beta Squad
  • Time Traveler (+800)
  • *
  • Posts: 810
  • ʇ ı  ʇ n o q ɐ  p ɹ ı ǝ ʍ ˙ ˙ ˙ ƃ u ı ɥ ʇ ǝ ɯ o s
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2010, 09:06:11 pm »
The Chrono Trigger probably wasn't specifically designed with the task of resurrecting Crono in mind, but Belthesar knew that was what it would be used for in the future, and that's why he made the blue poyozos.

Also, I can't believe I just now realized this, but even if they wanted to save Schala with the time egg, it would create an immediate paradox. If Schala wasn't there, they wouldn't have been sent away from the Ocean Palace and probably would have drowned. Then they wouldn't have been able to save her in the first place. So she wouldn't have been saved... and so on. (I should cross-post this to the 'Why didn't Magus shove everyone out of the way and save Schala' thread!)


The idea of Kid intended as a creepy replacement clone is kinda cool, especially if there's some focus on what her mental state is like without the Schala part of her really existing, but I really wouldn't like it as canon. Lucca's sinister enough as it is with the Porre weapons dealings and all her cahoots with Belthesar.

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2655
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2010, 12:10:06 am »
Also, I can't believe I just now realized this, but even if they wanted to save Schala with the time egg, it would create an immediate paradox. If Schala wasn't there, they wouldn't have been sent away from the Ocean Palace and probably would have drowned. Then they wouldn't have been able to save her in the first place. So she wouldn't have been saved... and so on. (I should cross-post this to the 'Why didn't Magus shove everyone out of the way and save Schala' thread!)

Not really if going by TTI and TB, though it would most likely leave 12,000 BC with a Blackbird and a bunch of Daltonites that would need to be taken care of in a returning visit.

maggiekarp

  • Crimson Echoes Beta Squad
  • Time Traveler (+800)
  • *
  • Posts: 810
  • ʇ ı  ʇ n o q ɐ  p ɹ ı ǝ ʍ ˙ ˙ ˙ ƃ u ı ɥ ʇ ǝ ɯ o s
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2010, 02:20:43 am »
Well, we don't know for sure if Dalton and all them survived in the original timeline, just that the Black Omen never rose

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2010, 03:01:05 am »
Well, we don't know whether replacing Crono with a dummy in the time freeze is counting a time travel event.
I know they all have TTI,  but if Schala was absent during the ocean palace(because you replaced her with something else in the time freeze), in which case they all died before the timetravel took place because no one teleported them to safe place, it will still be a paradox. It is like killing the younger version of oneself without timetravel.

I wonder why it has to be on the Death Peak, was there where the ocean palace incident occurred?

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2655
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2010, 09:30:03 am »
Well, we don't know whether replacing Crono with a dummy in the time freeze is counting a time travel event.
I know they all have TTI,  but if Schala was absent during the ocean palace(because you replaced her with something else in the time freeze), in which case they all died before the timetravel took place because no one teleported them to safe place, it will still be a paradox. It is like killing the younger version of oneself without timetravel.

I wonder why it has to be on the Death Peak, was there where the ocean palace incident occurred?


But the versions that would be sent to the Ocean Palace have TB anyway. And... you can't really kill your younger self if you don't time travel, unless you ask someone else. And it does count as Time Travel if they changed from time frame by doing so. The CT was most likely needed for the Time Freeze effect on their stay there (not to mention being able to return there, as the gates and Epoch seem to can't).

Well, we don't know for sure if Dalton and all them survived in the original timeline, just that the Black Omen never rose

Since it would be the altered events now, Dalton and crew would still board the Blackbird to escape, but since he and the Epoch have TB, they would be gone soon, but without the party there now, it still leaves the Blackbird and Daltonites still flying around the place.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 09:32:28 am by Acacia Sgt »

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 09:46:37 am »
Well, asking someone else to is still time travel.
According to TB theory, the time travel event creates another timeline, in that timeline the one never grows to that age since he was killed. But in the original timeline, there is no such event -- there was no record of that history event (the murder).

But using the time freeze from a time egg could be another case, since you interact with the past directly, without creating a copy of timeline. So if you action results a change in history, you can observe the change as well, just like Gaspar does. So to avoid such paradox, there're 2 ways:

1. The action must not change the history (impossible considering butterfly effect, but game theories are usually elastic).
2. The time freeze just leads to another timeline, a copy of the past. So the one saved is a copy from another timeline (but who really cares).

Due to condition 2, usage of an time egg could result duplicates, perhaps that is why 'the one to save must be important to blahblah..'
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 09:48:44 am by utunnels »

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2655
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2010, 09:52:56 am »
I don't see how using the Time Egg would not create another act of Time Travel. They time travel, modify the past, and go back, just like many of the cases regularly done. The Time Freeze is just a property of the CT, but why would that alone make the whole thing not count?

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2010, 10:16:44 am »
Hmm, because one should not witness a change in his history without time travel. At least that is what I understand the TB theory.
For example, we all know the Allies won the second world war. Even if someone travels to 1940s to change the history, the change happens in another timeline. We'll never see in history books that the Axis won.

As for why I don't think the time freeze is considered as time travel, is because everyone on Death Peak witnesses the event, they don't leave the place nor enter a gate. So they should not let their history change, unless the time freeze is a copy of the past, not the past itself.

The history was not changed, because the Crono clone was destroyed by Lavos instead, it didn't make differences.
But if a Schala clone was applied, something interesting would happen--
Lucca: Hey, use your magic power, let's get out of this place.
Clone: ...
Everyone: ...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 10:18:36 am by utunnels »

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2655
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2010, 10:22:42 am »
Just because a gate wasn't used doesn't mean it's not Time Travel. The Epoch doesn't use them, and when the unfinished Time Egg was used in Cross, Gates weren't used either. So this means it's functions different, yet still use the same purpose.

The Time Freeze effect was so that the could apply the change. Not much of a chance when Lavos itself is around, if there wasn't any freeze, Lavos would've been quick to act. So maybe that's why the Time Freeze was needed, so that they could act unbothered. As to why use a clone, well, we may theorize and use terms like TTI and TB, but the characters certainly don't (like Lucca with the Leene/Marle thing). So to their point of view, they need a clone so that no one suspects anything back there. Maybe it's why saving Schala as well didn't crossed their minds, they came up with the same you guys are thinking.

Dengar

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2010, 04:59:21 pm »
Ah! Wish I'd gotten onto this sooner.

I wasn't proposing that the Chrono crew save Schala at the moment of Crono's sacrifice.

"If, rather than traveling to the moment Crono dies, one were to travel to the moment Schala sends the group + Magus to the past, one could simply bring Schala back and avert the whole mess."

I shouldn't have said at the moment she send people away, but after.

Anway, as karp mentioned, the Time Egg wasn't made specifically for saving Crono, but to give the user the chance to save SOMEONE VITAL.

Rather than save Crono right before his sacrifice, I was suggesting that one could save Schala after she had saved everyone.

I should also note that this all ignores theories that Schala escapd the palace in order to pass Marle's necklace down through the generations. I just attribute that peculiarity to plots holes, like Marle disappearing in the past, yet Robo's future still exists at the end when Lavos was killed.

EgyLynx

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 298
    • View Profile
Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2010, 01:06:37 pm »
Soo something else has try kill Marle, or let it see at future warning? "dont go near"?

well... thats are only time when in ct we see something changes... soo
if that is i say :they change they minds at later... or is make only to make player sure to kill it...
you know what i mean!