Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

[Acacia Sgt]

That's certainly a cool design.

[xcalibur]

It most certainly is.

I like the suggestions thus far, I might come back with mine.

[xcalibur]

Here are my suggestions:

Fool - the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Azala
Emperor - King Guardia
Hierophant - Mother Brain
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Spekkio
Hermit - Belthasar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Masamune
Hanged Man - Gaspar
Death - Lavos
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine
Star - Pendant
Moon - Black Omen/Dreamstone
Sun - Zeal/Sun Stone
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - Nu/Entity

This isn't finalized, in fact I left a couple alternate choices in. However, I wanted to share my ideas, and I can definitely put forward arguments for this.

[Manly Man]

The only thing I'd change is to have Queen Zeal be The Fool. Otherwise, I'm pretty mutual on this.

[Acacia Sgt]

Most of the choices are fine I think. Although, I'd switch Gaspar and Belthasar's places.

[xcalibur]

My choices were based around my readings on Tarot meanings, with a lesser emphasis on aesthetic similarities. For the most part, things clicked into place.

I'll expound on some of my choices here for those interested:

@Manly Man: Queen Zeal would be a great choice for the fool. I chose the player, because one way of looking at the major arcana is as the fools journey. He goes through a long process and experiences many things, represented by the cards. the first half of the deck is material, while the second half is spiritual. Keeping with that meaning, it is the player who starts off knowing nothing, and gets to know the world of Chrono Trigger. On the other hand, the Fool can be someone who wants to see and experience it all, but may be naive and prone to folly (aka the cliff right in front of him). In that sense, queen zeal is the best fit. She was presumably not so bad while Zeal was powered by elemental magic. but in her overarching ambition, she was corrupted by Lavos' power - so thoroughly that she remains allied to him even after he destroys her civilization! I could see a Queen Zeal Fool card depicting her on the brink of stepping off the zeal islands.

@Acacia Sgt: I can see why you would do that. the main argument is that aesthetically, Gaspar looks the part of the hermit, and seems similar to him as well. But as far as meaning, my order works better. The Hanged Man is about being suspended between one thing and another, introspection, and viewing things from a different perspective. Gaspar fits this. At the end of time, he is in a state of suspension outside the flow of time. and according to some time theories on this site, the End of Time is sort of perpendicular to the normal timeline, allowing him to view events in time from a different, outside perspective.
Likewise, Belthasar works well as the Hermit. He lives alone, except for his Nu. The Hermit represents introspection and research, as well as a teacher who can share his knowledge. Belthasar does lots of research and work in the Keepers Dome, although the solitude eventually gets to him. He's also the source of valuable information to the party.

When putting my list together, I decided that I should either use ALL of the party, or just use Chrono&Marle on Lovers and NPC's or objects for the rest. Using some would seem kind of inconsistent, and I was aiming for internal consistency.
Ayla is a great fit for strength, but so is Spekkio. Lucca works well as the Sun, with the emphasis on reason, science (!), level-headedness and energy. But the Kingdom of Zeal also fits well, at least the Zeal before the Mammon Machine. And what did they use before? The Sun Stone. I'm not sure why I didn't think of that right away. The Sun Stone provided great energy to Zeal while still providing sustainability. Its use in the creation of powerful arms and armor also ties into the reason/science themes.

Lavos is definitely Death. The Death card doesn't mean just death and destruction, but also clearing away the old to enact change. that gives room for doubt, but you have to consider the whole of Lavos' history. When he came down to earth, he destroyed the Reptite civilization and created an ice age, setting the stage for the eventual rise of humans and Zeal. When he arose again, he destroyed the Zealian civilization and ended the ice age, setting the stage for the rest of history to unfold. And of course there's the 1999 apocalypse, which mightve set the stage for an eventual rise of machines, though this was never realized.
The Death card shows people from commoners to kings succumbing to his power, which shows how he can bring down anyone, from the greatest to the least (from Zeal to prehistoric animals). Lavos is also an overwhelming force that no one can resist, except for the Christlike Chrono and his disciples (which is going off on a wild tangent).

The Mother Brain is the Hierophant. The Hierophant card emphasizes organized religion, but also community, beliefs, and shared cultural values. It is anti-individuality. The Mother Brain is the leader of the robots, who is building a new order. To do this, she organizes the machines under her and rewrites their memory/minds to pull them into the rank and file. This process suppresses their individual traits, as we saw with Atropos XR.

This post is getting long, so I'll come back with more of this later if you're interested.

[tushantin]

Yeah.

And we need an excellent Lavos and Motherbrain fanart! 

[Syna]

I hate to be a tarot stickler, but I'd like to clarify again what "The Fool" card is supposed to indicate...

From Aeclectic Tarot:

"With all his worldly possessions in one small pack, the Fool travels he knows not where. So filled with visions, questions, wonder and excitement is he, that he doesn't see the cliff he is likely to fall over. At his heel a small dog harries him (or tries to warn him of a possible mis-step). Will the Fool learn to pay attention to where he's going before it's too late?...


As a card, the Fool ultimately stands for a new beginning often involving a literal move to a new home or job. The querent (meaning the sitter, or the one asking the cards for advice) might be starting to date again, or trying out some new activity. There's more than just change here, there is renewal, movement, and the energy of a fresh start.

In the Tarot, cards like The Magician or The Hermit can often stand for the querent or for someone in the querent's life. The Fool, however, usually stands for the querent, himself. They are back at zero, whether that be in romantic affairs, or career, work or intellectual pursuits. Far from being sad or frustrated by having to start over, however, the querent feels remarkably *free*, light hearted and refreshed, as if being given a second chance. They feel young and energized, as excited as a child who has discovered a new toyshop. Who knows what they will find on the shelves?"

I do agree with xcalibur that a strong case could be made for the Queen as being a classic Fool figure, but I think if you think of the cards as being approached in a very similar way as the player plays the game, Crono or the Player are the best choices overall.

Your interpretations are interesting, xcalibur! My only quibble would be that I'd personally prefer if the Big Seven each snatched a card, but I can tell you thought carefully about each choice you made.

[rushingwind]

I am such a tarot card geek, so I keep hoping some of these cards will actually come into existence.

I'd love to see Glenn (from Chrono Cross) in a Chrono Cross set somewhere, because I always thought of him as one of the core characters (and admittedly, he's my favorite character in the entire game, haha). Either way, I'd be screaming with joy to see these card sets.... Whether it's a Cross or Trigger set (or if Christmas can come twice, both!).

[Manly Man]

If there was such a thing as The Jackass card, Dalton would fit nicely.

[xcalibur]

I do agree with xcalibur that a strong case could be made for the Queen as being a classic Fool figure, but I think if you think of the cards as being approached in a very similar way as the player plays the game, Crono or the Player are the best choices overall.

Indeed. sticking by the proper definition, the Player or Chrono is best, which is why that was my choice. I just agreed that Queen Zeal would work well as a secondary choice with a different interpretation.

perhaps you could have Chrono on the verge of stepping into a Time Gate, with his cat in place of the Fool's dog.

Your interpretations are interesting, xcalibur! My only quibble would be that I'd personally prefer if the Big Seven each snatched a card, but I can tell you thought carefully about each choice you made.

thanks. and I did indeed put thought into making selections, aligning the meanings, and keeping it internally consistent.

as an alternative, if the 7 party members were in, here's where I would place them:

Chrono & Marle: Lovers (maybe Chrono as the Fool also?)
Lucca: Sun
Frog: Justice
Robo: Hanged Man?
Ayla: Strength
and Magus: Devil is a given, since he's also an NPC.

another issue is the minor arcana, and making sure that fits together. I don't want to re-use any characters. There are some workarounds though - I have Masamune as Justice, but Masa & Mune could be the King of Swords.

I liked your idea of having the Aces as significant items, but I used a few different items in my list! Still, it could work. We could have the zeal sapling as the Ace of Cups instead of the Pendant, since I think that works too well as the Star (explanation at the bottom). Ruby Knife would work fine as the Ace of Swords. There are no issues with the Gate Key as Ace of Wands, so that brings us to the Ace of Pentacles. I could use Black Omen for the Moon and avoid any conflict. On the other hand, Dreamstone could just as easily fit as the Moon.

The Moon refers to the subconscious, the mystic, and the otherworldly. Consider the quote from Zeal about Dreamstone:

   It all began aeons ago, when man's
   ancestors picked up a shard of a
   strange red rock...
 
   Its power, which was beyond human
   comprehension, cultivated dreams...
   In turn, love and hate were born...
   
   Only time will see how it all ends.

That definitely sounds like the work of the Moon. On the other hand, the Black Omen could also fit. It is otherworldly, being foreign and alien to the rest of the world. There are the mysterious doppelgangers. Also, it's referred to as the Black Dream, and I think there's an exit point where you're asked if you want to "awake from this dream".
Also, Dreamstone was highly valuable, and it's powerful, which fits as Ace of Pentacles.

If there was such a thing as The Jackass card, Dalton would fit nicely.

He'd be a perfect donkey. As it is, I think he would fit as a page.

As for the Star, I'm sure it's the pendant. The Star acts as a guiding light, helping you on your path and presenting future possibilities. The Pendant is what triggers the Time Gate that starts the whole adventure. It allows you to bypass sealed doors and chests, so you can continue on your adventure and get better stuff. It appears early in the game and brings you to much greater possibilities in its small but important role.

[Kodokami]

If there was such a thing as The Jackass card, Dalton would fit nicely.

That gave me a good laugh.

[Syna]

perhaps you could have Chrono on the verge of stepping into a Time Gate, with his cat in place of the Fool's dog.

I really like this! It would work quite perfectly terms of both the picture and symbolism.

I'm still a little torn about the Magician. Bekkler works, of course, and I'd like to fit him into a suit card at least since he's a great character, but my preference would be for the trump to be taken up by a more significant presence. I do think Crono could function nicely, but I admit that aesthetically it's a stretch.

Chrono & Marle: Lovers (maybe Chrono as the Fool also?)
Lucca: Sun
Frog: Justice
Robo: Hanged Man?
Ayla: Strength
and Magus: Devil is a given, since he's also an NPC.

We seem to agree on these choices! I admit that I'm especially attached to Ayla as Strength -- aside from the obvious correlations, the image of her with a beast would be especially fitting -- and Robo as the Hanged Man, for these reasons.

- The Hanged Man has connotations of traitorship. This fits Robo's relationship with Mother Brain and the other robots.
- The Hanged Man is also in a strange, inverted position due to his desire to seek knowledge. This fits his relationship with humans: he doesn't fit in, but is eager to learn about them. He willingly chose that role, as the Hanged Man does.
- Robo selflessly helps cultivate Fiona's Forest and in the process, gains mystical knowledge, evidenced by the Entity conversation. That's very Hanged Man, to me.
- There's also the possible meaning of sacrifice, which aligns with Robo's identification with Prometheus and his later sacrifice in Cross.
- Robo is a badass and so is Odin. (This is the least effective of my arguments, I confess. )

All in all I like how there is something tragic and selfless about the Hanged Man, and how that speaks to Robo's willingness to go into the uncertain future, and of course his eventual demise by way of FATE.

All of these, save the traitorship aspect, also fit Gaspar, however. I am not entirely sold on the appropriateness of the Hierophant to Belthasar: the role definitely fits the one Belthasar filled in Zeal, and  the one he fills in Cross, but the most striking image we get of Belthasar is definitely as a solitary madman. Still, I feel that Belthasar could fit as the Hierophant regardless, and if we made Robo the Hanged Man we'd have to figure out where Gaspar fits.  

And Magus as the Devil is a given, for me. Too perfect. I also liked the fact that Lucca gains her best equipment through the Sun Stone; there's an added little detail.

---

I agree with your options regarding the Moon card. I chose the Black Dream myself because the meaning fit (as you described) and because in terms of the Trumps as the Fool's Journey, the Moon is often perceived to fulfill a "dark night of the soul" sort of function -- the period of illusions and terrors, the "valley of the shadow of death" where the Fool must traverse before reaching the Sun. I feel that the Black Dream may color the card a touch negatively, so I've no quarrel with either that choice or Dreamstone.

That's similar to the reasons I placed Lavos as Judgment, because aside from the obvious apocalyptic associations (which are traditional depictions of the card), having Lavos next to the end of the suit striked me as very appropriate, since you would encounter it just before countering the Entity-Nu-World trump. But again, Death fits Lavos extremely well, and it could swap places with the Chrono Trigger with no problems.

Regarding the Star, again, your reasoning for the Pendant is quite solid. Since Marle is the carrier of the pendant, though, I feel as though a combination of our two ideas may be possible -- especially since Marle acts as the impetus for the journey to begin, and is a symbol of faith and hope when Crono dies, and since the card is traditionally depicted with a woman anyway.

[tushantin]

I hope you guys are making a list, and front-side theme.   So I can begin on the template.

[Ema]

That is a very neat design Tushantin.