Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

[tushantin]

Please take me off your mailing list for this. n_n'

Same here. I'm glad the project has momentum but I can't help and I now have almost 20 unread PMs, and an email for each PM.

Already done. Check the last unread PM by me, it should state that the discussion's moving to a new thread.

And sorry about the fantastic bombing.  Didn't think my "mass announcement" would eventually turn into "massive uproar of enthusiasm" (which, I admit, I'm actually quite fond of. FREEDOM, YAY!)

[xcalibur]

I actually think that Fiona should be the Queen of Pentacles. Pentacles are an earth element. Cups are water. Perhaps have Crono's mom as that? Or maybe the woman who was the NPC that saved the sapling?

either way would work. My thinking was that cups are based on emotion and life, and the water element fits the replacement of desert with forest well. Pentacles are based on the material and practical, thus Chronos Mom. The Queens are open-ended since the Major Arcana haven't been finalized yet.

I would argue that the Zealian woman simply isn't significant enough to be in the court cards.

[xcalibur]

MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono/the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler OR Belthasar
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Queen Leene
Emperor - King Guardia OR Azala
Hierophant - Mother Brain OR Belthasar
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit - Belthasar OR Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Gaspar AND/OR Robo
Death - Lavos
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine                                
Star - Marle w/ Pendant                                      
Moon - Dreamstone (w/ Queen Zeal?)
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                    
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - Nu/Entity

where there are two different possibilities, I put OR in bold. where OR is bold, underlined, and italicized, it relates to the whole Guru issue (I'll address that next). I attempted to draw an arrow between Death and Judgement, since a choice on one sets the choice for the other.

The Guru issue is the conflict between fitting the 3 Gurus and the 7 party members. Almost everything fits, but then we have to place Robo. It seems that Hanged Man is most applicable, but Gaspar is there. We could set Robo there, bump Gaspar to Hermit (since that also kinda fits), then move Belthasar in turn to Hierophant, Magician, or elsewhere.
An unorthodox alternative to this would be to split the Hanged Man card between Gaspar/Robo. Or make it Belthasar/Robo - this might be easier to pull off, at a moderate cost to proper choice.

also, we had some issues with Azala. her role doesn't seem to fit the nurturing Empress too well. But a female Emperor would also be an ill fit. She may have to be assigned to the court, although the King and Queen of Guardia aren't totally ideal for Empress and Emperor.


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

no issues here, everything fits.


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles-
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Kino
Page of Cups- Janus

This is still open to interpretation, but this is as far as I was able to take it. possible queens I know of are Queen Zeal, Azala, and Cronos Mom. also Queen Leene and Mother Brain, if they're not Trumps.


time periods - I favor adequate representation of the major eras of the game in the selections. naturally there are limitations, such as the uneven distribution of important personalities throughout time. the Major Arcana have a lot of the present, since 3 of the main characters are from there. The Court Cards are dominated by 600 ad. but as long as no one is neglected, it should be fine.

good/evil - I also want to have a balanced mix between good and bad. This isn't too much of a problem in the Trumps, except that it leads me to favor Dreamstone over Black Omen for Moon. frequently maligned tarot cards should have something less negative. However, I may have to sacrifice that in the case of Death - Lavos.
This is more of an issue in the court cards. I'm aiming for balance in the 4 court cards for each suit. Naturally, Cups is going to lean towards positive, but assigning Janus as the page helps balance that. Gato also helps balance Pentacles, and if the Queen is positive then that will be fine. Even if 3 of the swords are negative, Masa&Mune as king can balance that imo.

[Syna]

A quick thought pending some substantive discussion on the Guru & Empress issues:

Would it be possible to combine Dreamstone with a character, just to go with a similar schtick for the Sun, Moon, and Star cards? Just a thought. I imagined that Queen Zeal might fit and would be a way of merging the two ideas, but that does color the card a bit negatively & she doesn't encompass all of what Dreamstone connotes. On the other hand, you do get a bit of the "possibly nightmarish 'valley of the shadow of death' period" meaning a little more emphatically.

I'm backtracking a bit on the Black Omen because: 1) it is optional content, after all (and doesn't have the compelling reasons for including Mother Brain), and 2) it strikes me as a little symmetrically off to have the Star and Sun depicted with characters and the Moon to be a place. I don't agree with the placement of the Gurus in those three positions for appropriateness reasons, but it was a really nice idea to have the three cards relate to each other.

I like the idea of depicting "trans-period" entities in the time where you encounter them (The Chrono Trigger & Belthasar in the Future, Melchior in the Present, etc.). I am also quite comfortable with Lavos as Death & The Chrono Trigger as Judgment. In the case of Death perhaps we can emphasize somehow that Lavos was the catalyst for the adventure & human evolution, etc. to offset the negative qualities.

Just some ideas, feel free to discard! I don't want to make this TOO complicated, and it's a minor point.

[xcalibur]

A quick thought pending some substantive discussion on the Guru & Empress issues:

Would it be possible to combine Dreamstone with a character, just to go with a similar schtick for the Sun, Moon, and Star cards? Just a thought. I imagined that Queen Zeal might fit and would be a way of merging the two ideas, but that does color the card a bit negatively & she doesn't encompass all of what Dreamstone connotes. On the other hand, you do get a bit of the "possibly nightmarish 'valley of the shadow of death' period" meaning a little more emphatically.

that could work well. my original thought was to incorporate Queen Zeal into the Tower (Mammon Machine), or set her as a court queen.

I'm backtracking a bit on the Black Omen because: 1) it is optional content, after all (and doesn't have the compelling reasons for including Mother Brain), and 2) it strikes me as a little symmetrically off to have the Star and Sun depicted with characters and the Moon to be a place.

indeed. Dreamstone is more significant to the story and to theory&analysis, so we can stick with that.

I don't agree with the placement of the Gurus in those three positions for appropriateness reasons, but it was a really nice idea to have the three cards relate to each other.

you don't agree with

temperance - melchior
hanged man - gaspar
hermit - belthasar
?

like I said, there's still room to shuffle things around. or did someone else suggest the three gurus on sun/star/moon respectively?

I like the idea of depicting "trans-period" entities in the time where you encounter them (The Chrono Trigger & Belthasar in the Future, Melchior in the Present, etc.). I am also quite comfortable with Lavos as Death & The Chrono Trigger as Judgment. In the case of Death perhaps we can emphasize somehow that Lavos was the catalyst for the adventure & human evolution, etc. to offset the negative qualities.

Just some ideas, feel free to discard! I don't want to make this TOO complicated, and it's a minor point.

indeed. I just felt that since we wanted a bit more representation from prehistory and the future, that the chrono trigger and dreamstone would do nicely.

[Syna]

like I said, there's still room to shuffle things around. or did someone else suggest the three gurus on sun/star/moon respectively?

Oh, it's the latter. Someone classified Sun/Star/Moon as the Gurus. I liked the idea in theory but in practice I did not feel it cohered. I think the Star and Sun work very well as we've been discussing them and thought we might take the chance to include another character alongside the Dreamstone.

indeed. I just felt that since we wanted a bit more representation from prehistory and the future, that the chrono trigger and dreamstone would do nicely.

I think it's a great idea.

[xcalibur]

like I said, there's still room to shuffle things around. or did someone else suggest the three gurus on sun/star/moon respectively?

Oh, it's the latter. Someone classified Sun/Star/Moon as the Gurus. I liked the idea in theory but in practice I did not feel it cohered. I think the Star and Sun work very well as we've been discussing them and thought we might take the chance to include another character alongside the Dreamstone.

indeed. I just felt that since we wanted a bit more representation from prehistory and the future, that the chrono trigger and dreamstone would do nicely.

I think it's a great idea.

I see. I imagine it was melchior - sun, belthasar - moon, gaspar - star. but the current order is better.

Queen Zeal and Dreamstone would be great - she would fit with the Moon as well. the only issue is that it would take away the explicit prehistory reference.

also, I just updated the index re:latest discussion. you can still see the old version (and my awesome arrow) on the general discussion thread.

[tushantin]

I've a question: Which of the indexed seems more set in stone? And how would one envision it symbolically?

[xcalibur]

I've a question: Which of the indexed seems more set in stone? And how would one envision it symbolically?

Here are the selections which I think are set in stone:

MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono/the Player
High Priestess - Schala
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine
Star - Marle w/ Pendant
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                    
World - Nu/Entity


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Knight of Swords- Slash

King of Wands- Spekkio
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea

King of Pentacles- Ozzie

Page of Cups- Janus


this isn't to say that other choices aren't legitimate, but I believe that these are unlikely to change.

As far as imagery, I have lots of ideas for that. Here are some:

Chrono the Fool, on the verge of stepping through a Time Gate, with his cat in place of the dog.
Schala - High Priestess. she'd definitely be in her fine robes, maybe with the Zealian statues of a nude woman and beast on either side.
Ayla - Strength, and as I mentioned in the list she'd be closing a sabertooth tigers mouth.
Time Gate - Wheel of Fortune. It would depict a time gate of course, maybe with figures around it from the various time periods - a robot or mutant, a reptite or kilwala, an enlightened one, a mystic, etc.
Melchior - Temperance. since the original card has substances being mixed, you could have Melchior doing some sort of alchemy, or working on the Masamune or equipment.
Marle w/ Pendant - Star. I could see her wearing the Pendant at the Millennial Fair, with a glint of blue-white light visible in the jewel, like a star.
Lucca the Sun, holding the Wondershot, with a ball of golden energy at the muzzle. maybe with rays coming off of it like in the original card.

for the Ace cards, we might stick with the traditional illustration of a hand holding each object. Maybe with the Ace of Cups, waterfalls would come off of the Seed/Sapling, causing a forest to grow at the bottom.

[tushantin]

Okay, so I got bored working on my eProject, so I took some time to do this instead. Somehow, I feel like the "Page of Cups" definition fits me a lot. Here's a rough doodle / concept of Janus mourning the fall of his home and everyone he knew. What do you folks think?

[Mr Bekkler]

That's awesome. I like where it's going.

[TheMage]

agreed and even Alfador looks sad!

[Lady Marle]

I'll start my sketches this week. I'm doing two projects, this one and the artwork for CT: Prelude to a Dream so time to get to work!! 

[tushantin]

Does anyone object to Janus wearing an indigo Zealian Sherwani with a winter scarf to preserve the "Royal / Enlightened" feeling?

...I mean, come on!

Here's my proposal (check the attachment). (Yes, to be a good artist you also have to learn Architecture, Photography and Fashion Designing sometimes; sucks, aye?)

[tushantin]

Okay, I'm an impatient fellow. I went ahead and drew it anyway.  

One with scarf (can be redone), one without. Pick your best. (Darn, he looks older...)