Chrono Trigger Original Characters : Your Thoughts

[tushantin]

Yeah, I've been writing short, original stories (I wonder why I find comfortable writing originals than fanfiction) since I was a kid, and certain aspects of every story unexplored often astounded me. True, the villains are often more intelligent and strong willed than the protagonists, but that was the entire point of the concept: the "wall" has to be strong if the "Man" is to struggle and break it. Easy brittle walls don't make good enough story.

Personally, the story I found most compelling (in the Thriller area) is Deathnote. I can't really express how amazing and ingenious it was! The main character himself could be noted as an equivalent to King Zeal; evil, intelligent, strong willed, and a GOOD motive to drive the character. Though all those characteristics make him a douchebag, the author ingeniously turned the tables on literature concepts. It's the PROTAGONIST that actually drives the antagonist rather than the other way around, and the antagonist is a good, Sherlock Holmes-esque figure who'd give his all to stop this mad-genius.

But as much as people rooted for the villains, when watching Deathnote you actually find yourself rooting for the good guy, i.e., L the detective. I wonder why, but some people are just naturally drawn to the antagonist, as in The Wall, rather than the man doing the thing even if he/she's capable.

[Syna]

IMHO, Heros are, on the whole, much more difficult to do compellingly than villains, though there are certainly exceptions. I'm with Sajainta -- I don't necessarily have such an overwhelming pro-villain bias, ha - but I know a story's done something remarkable when the good guys are worth rooting for.

I agree with Zeality on why this is the case, and I think it's because people are so afraid. You see it in movies all the time: the hero has to follow a specific formula, and can barely have any individuality whatsoever; whatever compelling aspects s/he may have has to be tempered by morality or by "learning a lesson" in the end. Typically, the only way this works is when the personality of the hero is convincingly sincere and purehearted enough - and that has been done, so it gets old. The villains, though, are free to be agents of their own will, to seek after their own desires, and watching someone with the intensity it takes to have desires strong enough to seek them out in the face of moral or societal convention is very compelling.

Tangentially, but as an example, this is what bothers me about Twilight and about most romance stories in general. From what I know without having actually read or seen the story, it's such a blatant, pedantic, piddling bait-and-switch. Edward Cullen is all mysterious and intense and dramatic, but in the end he becomes this perfect, whitewashed boyfriend/husband, 'de-fanged' if you will of all that made him interesting in the first place. Conveniently, the story ends right after that happens. (Of course, what made him interesting in the first place was quite shallow, but you see what I mean.) This bait-and-switch is all over the place. You see it a lot in 'femme fatale' characters, too - they are seductive and alluring and difficult enough to get the hero's attention, but at the end of the day he always has them clinging to his arm and 'redeemed' by his morality/badassitude. Grrrr.

So in conclusion, fuck weak-hearted, simplistic, individuality-denying morality.

[Sajainta]

Tangentially, but as an example, this is what bothers me about Twilight and about most romance stories in general. From what I know without having actually read or seen the story, it's such a blatant, pedantic, piddling bait-and-switch. Edward Cullen is all mysterious and intense and dramatic, but in the end he becomes this perfect, whitewashed boyfriend/husband, 'de-fanged' if you will of all that made him interesting in the first place. Conveniently, the story ends right after that happens. (Of course, what made him interesting in the first place was quite shallow, but you see what I mean.) This bait-and-switch is all over the place. You see it a lot in 'femme fatale' characters, too - they are seductive and alluring and difficult enough to get the hero's attention, but at the end of the day he always has them clinging to his arm and 'redeemed' by his morality/badassitude. Grrrr.

It's interesting that you bring that up.  I've seen that desire in many people I know and (unfortunately) some I've dated.  They have a saviour complex and try to fix you or "save" you, whether it's a girl falling for the "bad boy" and believes her love can reform him or (in my case) a boy believing he can "fix" a fucked-up, unstable girl.  I see this kind of mentality all the time, where people genuinely want someone they are with to--essentially--completely change to fit their partner's preferences.  It's where we get the once-a-major-playboy-now-a-faithful-husband/boyfriend idea that so many girls I know find attractive, or the broken-little-doll-who-is-saved-by-her-boyfriend's-love idea.  Those stereotypes are everywhere.  It's disturbing enough that they're in literature or cinema, let alone that people actually think that way.

And ugh.  Don't even bother reading or watching Twilight (although I'm sure you wouldn't).  I read all four books in 2008 to see what all the fuss was about (and I didn't want to bash books that I hadn't even read), and they were honestly some of the worst written, convoluted, dull, anti-woman books I've ever read.  Total wastes of paper.

[tushantin]

"Once-a-major-playboy-now-a-faithful-husband/boyfriend idea"? I can see how that can be appealing. See, playboys aren't really as bad as most people see them, especially the most successful ones; they're actually a cross between fun-loving super-social blokes and gentlemen, something far from generic and making them unpredictable. Their personalities and level of "making you laugh" may vary, but they certainly know how to treat ladies better than most generic gentlemen.  I know all this via experience (not that I'm one myself, but I do know more than a dozen playboys in real life).

So basically, when a playboy becomes a faithful spouse the idea itself could be really tempting for some, especially romance writers who'd play with various struggles between the playboy's freedom and the girl's uncertainness. Of course, your loathing for that kind of work may be related to two points: 1) The development just wasn't proper, or 2) the writer doesn't conceive how an actual playboy rolls. XDDD Well, there could be more reasons, but here's my two cents.

Frankly, I'm not a romance writer myself, but I did plan on writing one just for the heck of it. The story's about  this girl who falls on love with a slumdog who knows how to treat a lady. Well, basically a rapist/thief/murderer-turned-gentleman, to make things clear, but just to let people know that I'm not trying to be sexist I actually added female cops to the story. A Romance/Thriller you could say (yeah, I'm a fan of thrillers), but the story rolls like this:  for most women, walking down the slums at night alone isn't really safe, and you know why. At New Year's eve they come home late from a party and their car leaves on their own. Stumbling across a band of thieves in the alleyway, celebrating their New Year with booze, instantly have no way to run. The guys help themselves to their victims, but one of their friends comes about and tells them to "leave a couple of them, at least for once a year", sounding like a tradition where meat is forbidden once a year or something. He turns to the girls and says, "Happy New Year! It's your lucky day. Lost, are you?" He helps them get home safely, but warns the girls not to be a fool to walk the alley alone at night, for he wouldn't be this generous next time.

And yet for some reason one of the girls decides to seek out this guy somehow, despite the warnings that it could be dangerous, but he is nowhere to be found. She investigates and finds out that he's wanted for the murder of many political leaders under someone's command, and also guilty several rape and theft charges. This is where the real story picks up.

[Sajainta]

The story's about  this girl who falls on love with a slumdog who knows how to treat a lady. Well, basically a rapist/thief/murderer-turned-gentleman, to make things clear, but just to let people know that I'm not trying to be sexist I actually added female cops to the story. A Romance/Thriller you could say (yeah, I'm a fan of thrillers), but the story rolls like this:  for most women, walking down the slums at night alone isn't really safe, and you know why. At New Year's eve they come home late from a party and their car leaves on their own. Stumbling across a band of thieves in the alleyway, celebrating their New Year with booze, instantly have no way to run. The guys help themselves to their victims, but one of their friends comes about and tells them to "leave a couple of them, at least for once a year", sounding like a tradition where meat is forbidden once a year or something. He turns to the girls and says, "Happy New Year! It's your lucky day. Lost, are you?" He helps them get home safely, but warns the girls not to be a fool to walk the alley alone at night, for he wouldn't be this generous next time.

So a rapist who prevents his rapist friends from committing a terrible crime only out of some tradition, but then threatens the victims that if they dare have the audacity to walk down an alley again he won't stop them from being raped.

Yeah, sounds like he sure knows "how to treat a lady".  I also like how this supposed "gentleman" rapist compares women to meat.  That seems to be the only realistic element in what you're saying.  Do you actually know any rapists?  Do you actually know how rapists view their victims?

I know I'm totally derailing the thread, but I'm just confused and seriously, seriously disturbed at how you can say this character knows how to treat a lady and is in any way a gentleman.

[tushantin]

Just to correct you, I said "playboys" know how to treat a lady, not rapists. o.o That story example was just to tell you how I operate when plotting, especially when writing mature-rated stories. Jeez, you really have a knack of twisting my words, it's downright offending.

Of course, if you got confused with the rapist/thief/murderer-turned-gentleman, that's the development I'm talking about. Misunderstanding happens; when one mentions this in a plot summary it sounds completely unrealistic, like what happens first and how it gets there, but the "middle" is never really mentioned lest the author give away the suspense of the book. You see, the book emphasizes the point of change of character that also plays a major role in real-life psychology, especially due to circumstances that affect a person's mentality a given time. Didn't I mention the book's a thriller?

The basic point is maintained within three acts, each of them having their own specific plot scenarios: 1) Act 1 focusing on girl-versus-criminal, with the guidance of a cop in order to survive, where the criminal is the real antagonist, ruthless and intelligent; 2) Act 2 the criminal/villain struggles against himself, turning from a villain into an anti-hero, thus the man-versus-himself-and-authority scenario; the story takes place from his point of view; 3) And lastly, criminal-and-girl-against-the-world scenario, where albeit the criminal's personality, intelligence and bloodlust is retained, his character alters depending on how he is affected by a situation. This time he intends to survive not only the onslaught of the gang he was betrayed by but also the officials of the state; this also drives the girl into making choices whether or not to assist the man, which results in at least 5 different endings. The outcome? The path the man finally walks into: either a peaceful vagabond, assassin-for-hire, simply a killer looking for vengeance, etc.

And yet the reason I consider it to be a romance fic is mainly because of the relationship between this criminal and the girl; the first and third act are portrayed from her viewpoint, and depending on the decisions she takes the story alters heavily. And in order to protect the genre of the story in case it goes on to darker realms, I've also inserted a funny character who also happens to be her fiance. Just for the heck of it.  

So a rapist who prevents his rapist friends from committing a terrible crime only out of some tradition, but then threatens the victims that if they dare have the audacity to walk down an alley again he won't stop them from being raped.

That's the whole point of the story! This first incident is required to confuse both the girl and the audience whether the dude's a good guy or bad. See, threats like that are actually common in the slum especially by the alphas. It's factual that when someone from the outside arrives in a creepy, scary place, the natives there would rather have them scared in order to put them in their toes and not cause trouble (again, experience; I used to be a kid back then, but they also scared my parents). The whole point of the first scene is to make the dude scary, thus the first act having him as an antagonist.

[Sajainta]

Just to correct you, I said "playboys" know how to treat a lady, not rapists. o.o That story example was just to tell you how I operate when plotting, especially when writing mature-rated stories. Jeez, you really have a knack of twisting my words, it's downright offending.

Um, no.  You never mentioned playboys and "knows how to treat a lady" in the same sentence.  This is what you said::

The story's about  this girl who falls on love with a slumdog who knows how to treat a lady. Well, basically a rapist/thief/murderer-turned-gentleman

(Emphasis mine.)

You specifically said that she falls in love with a slumdog (who knows how to treat a lady), who is a rapist-turned-gentleman.  I am not twisting your words in any way, shape, or form.  How exactly did I twist your words in this instance?

I have no issue with you writing your story.  You're completely free to write whatever you want.  To be frank, it sounds highly unrealistic (I'm sure you probably know this, but the vast, vast majority of sexual offenders do not reform.  That's been statistically proven.  I can give you studies if you wish) and I find the idea of someone looking past such a heinous crime as rape and falling for someone who has committed such crimes to be incredibly nauseating.  I suggest that if you want your story to be realistic, you should do some major studying on sexual offenders, and talk to people you know who have been raped and see what they think about your story (if you haven't done those things already).  I've just had far too many shitty experiences in life which have caused me to want to vomit when I hear of stories about "rapist-turned-protagonist".  I've known rapists, and sociopaths, and murderers, and all kinds of terrible people and I have spend years and years of my life trying to figure out why they have done such horrible things and why they think the way they do and how they can treat other human beings like objects.

But I don't know you, and maybe you've done a lot of research on the subject.  I have no idea.

It is your story, and you can write what you wish or do as much or as little research as you want.  I'm not going to tell you how to write your story.  This is just my personal opinion, and at the end of the day I'm just someone on the internet whom you've never met.

[tushantin]

Um, no.  You never mentioned playboys and "knows how to treat a lady" in the same sentence.

 This is what you said::

"Once-a-major-playboy-now-a-faithful-husband/boyfriend idea"? I can see how that can be appealing. See, playboys aren't really as bad as most people see them, especially the most successful ones; they're actually a cross between fun-loving super-social blokes and gentlemen, something far from generic and making them unpredictable. Their personalities and level of "making you laugh" may vary, but they certainly know how to treat ladies better than most generic gentlemen.

As for...

The story's about  this girl who falls on love with a slumdog who knows how to treat a lady. Well, basically a rapist/thief/murderer-turned-gentleman

Once again, this happens in Act 3, depending entirely on the circumstances. I'm sorry for not having pointed this out first, but I never mentioned "rapists in general" know how to you know what.

Statistics or not, you may have read or, God forbid, experienced all this about criminals, but tell me, have you ever lived in slums? Ever in your life? Ever since 6 years of age (at least until I was 14) I have actually been brought up there by my aunt, and nostalgic as it may be the environments were shitty at best when it came to drunkards and gangs. And who were those rapists I've in mind? Family folks, dudes in their 20s, and hell, even the cops! Curfew was actually a community agreement and I was forced to go back home after 7pm. True, 94% of the criminals above 35 of age retained their psychotic natures, but majority of those between 19 to 35 actually got their acts together as they moved on. Mind you, these were scary folks and you'd find yourself murdered in broad daylight over the slightest arguments, rational or not for anything goes, but I've actually known many folks who retained their personality yet turned over a new leaf to do more good than bad. One of those criminals has been my uncle's good friend for over 6 years now; still badass, stubborn and murderous as ever, but willing to lay down his life to protect his friends just to atone for what he's done in the past.

If you seriously think a human mind is so simple then I'd recommend you double check your statistics, because if all this sounds unrealistic to you then perhaps my country doesn't even exist. Reality has a potential to differ from simple analysis alone and concepts themselves are tools to analyze those layers of truth. Agreed majority of criminals would stay bad for fear of retribution, but reality is even stranger.

This topic ends here. Sorry for even discussing this with you and wasting your time.

[Syna]

Tushantin, Sajainta has a point. While I appreciate that you're trying to transfer your real experiences into a story, the plot you outlined has been done before in one form or another, and that is going to prove an obstacle. Story is all about deft execution, so there's no way I could judge it on the brief summary you provided; however, there are so many "criminal reformed stories out there, and they are just damn hard to do in a convincing or original way anymore. Much less in a way that doesn't secretly glamorize the rapist or whitewash his actions.

Rape in particular will be hard to do this with. Murder is, of course, an equally awful crime, but doesn't necessarily involve the debasement and degradation of rape. To be honest, as a woman in our modern culture, I see so much trivialization of rape that I would not be inclined to read your story just from the description unless I had it on good authority that it would treat the subject with sufficient gravitas. Pulp novels pretend that redemption is like a new life in a video game when it's an immense and complex psychological undertaking.

I also think you missed the point a bit when you went on your playboy tangent. A playboy who is unapologetic about his desire for freedom and who is considerate of the girls he dates is not someone I have any kind of problem with. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in stories that insist such a person be reformed right before the end so they can live happily ever after et cetera, essentially erasing the reason he was a compelling love interest to begin with. I can see why a girl may want to redeem him, but ultimately, it doesn't make sense.

It's like asking Catwoman to be a housewife. It'd be a damn shame if it actually happened - she wouldn't be Catwoman. (Apologies. I love Batman.)

[tushantin]

Ah, thanks for clearing that out, Syna. Thing is, I was actually going for some kind of originality, but had no idea if it was done before. Nevertheless, although there are many criminal reformed stories out there, just how many of them leave realistic trails?  Think Hamlet; a hero marching for vengeance doesn't always get a happy ending. Crime doesn't pay, and this would prove to be the ultimate barrier, the ultimate struggle emotionally and politically, between the girl and the criminal, and he just can't be let off too easily.

Forgive me if I unintentionally put womanhood in a bad view in any way. I was somewhat inspired by James Hadley Chase - No Orchids for Miss Blandish, and judging by what I've seen so far I wondered if I could trace some kind of "unthinkable", exploring the human side of crime, causes and effects, vulnerabilities of it and empathy, and basically trying something new. Nevertheless, it's just a concept and could need a lot of tweaking. Nevertheless, I should return to writing Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Crime, Tragedy, Police Procedural and Thriller; I'm just not cut out to be a romance writer. Inception wasn't made in a year, after all.

On the side note, Christopher Nolan/Heath Ledger's Joker was awesome!

[Syna]

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest your story was necessarily sexist or unrealistic. What I'm saying is that it's been done before, and very badly done, so it will be a remarkable thing to pull it off with realism and poignance. It may very well be worth the endeavor, since it's true that people typically treat crime as a thrilling little plot device and don't necessarily examine it in any psychological depth. Just treat cautiously, do research, and do some deep thinking about what you've seen and why it happened.

I agree about the Joker - what a titanic villain! - and I hope that Chris Nolan can pull of Catwoman as well. I'm thrilled that he's going to take a shot at her in the next film.

[Mr Bekkler]

Wow this thread used to be cool. And I've missed a lot. Tushantin, that "story idea" was really fucked up. sorry but wow. I think you need to work on communicating your ideas better. Or just get better ideas. I don't want to offend you, as your ideas in the Chronoverse (Fleabane stuff) seem much more thought out. But no woman (in her right mind or not) is going to seek out her would-be rapist who "let her go" on a whim unless she has a big gun and great aim.

Not trying to flame, but stories are meant to be entertaining, and none of that sounded like entertainment in the least. Telling Saj she's being offensive for pointing that out is wrong.

[tushantin]

Yeah, I apologize for earlier (I actually did feel offended, but I guess Saj didn't mean to; sorry about all this), I guess I haven't been getting much sleep. Thing is, I love to experiment with concepts that haven't been touched before, and if they have, I love to expand the whole thing. I'm not really afraid of trying new.  Though thing is, it's not really as "fucked up" as it sounds, because a similar concept, though different, has already been tried in James Hadley Chase - No Orchids for Miss Blandish, but whereas Miss Blandish's head was forcibly fueled by drugs and Stockholm Syndrome, I actually tried to go much deeper. Sorry though; discussing R-rated concepts in a PG-rated forums is bad. x_x" I'll delete those posts if I have to.

And you're right, I need to work on communicating better. Problem is, I don't know how. I don't even remember the last time someone actually understood what I've tried to say exactly. Nevertheless, this isn't the forum to discuss about it. Once again, sorry for ruining this thread.

@Syna: Don't rule out the fact that Poison Ivy also has the prospects of showing up instead of Catwoman. 

[Manly Man]

...This thread has gone on a rather grim digression. Perhaps actually talking about OC's rather than the psychological relationships between rapists and their victims would be much more approriate.

SO! How's about them self-inserts?

[Sajainta]

Agreed.  Topic derailment over.

Gotta love those self-inserts.  -____-  I haven't read enough Chrono fanfic to notice any self-inserts, but I've read my fair share of Harry Potter terrible fanfic with self-inserts.  They're completely obnoxious.  It's one thing to use your own experiences in some way or form to write a story, but it's an entirely different thing to just use your supposed "original character" as your own personal mouthpiece.