Author Topic: Conceptual Framework of the Nature of Time  (Read 12534 times)

Sentenal

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« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2005, 01:24:44 pm »
Did your teacher have you read Decartes?  I think you would like him...

Hadriel

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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2005, 01:50:34 pm »
Meh, we barely read anything worthwhile.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2005, 05:47:23 pm »
Epistemology is the most important of all branches of philosophy. "Annoying" is relative.

Sentenal

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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2005, 05:51:21 pm »
How do you know?

And I can keep asking that with every single response you give.  Its annoying.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2005, 06:56:07 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
How do you know?

And I can keep asking that with every single response you give.  Its annoying.


Did you mean to ask how I "know" that epistemology is the most important branch of philosophy? If so, then the answer is that, without an epistemological grounding, one could no more pursue philosophy with integrity than one could pursue sports without having a body. Epistemology is concerned with the concepts of evidence and logic that serve to verify or disprove statements. Without this framework, rational discussion would be gibberish. Epistemology is a big fancy word for one of those "conventions of the mind" that humanity relied upon for thousands of years before attempting to rigorously study it.

If, instead, you meant to imply that epistemology is an annoying waste of time that boils down to the caricature refrain "But how do you know that?" then I guess I don't have anything meaningful to offer to you. Either you feel that the study of knowledge is beneath you, or you genuinely don't see its merit. I would hope this was not what you meant.

Sentenal

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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2005, 07:16:17 pm »
I agree epistemology is a very important topic of philosophical debate, but I also see its applications in annoying stupider people.  Useally, epistemology boils down to 'Is there one universal truth to base all others on, or not?"  It can go very deep.

Hadriel

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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2005, 10:13:24 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Sentenal
How do you know?

And I can keep asking that with every single response you give.  It's annoying.

Did you mean to ask how I "know" that epistemology is the most important branch of philosophy? If so, then the answer is that, without an epistemological grounding, one could no more pursue philosophy with integrity than one could pursue sports without having a body. Epistemology is concerned with the concepts of evidence and logic that serve to verify or disprove statements. Without this framework, rational discussion would be gibberish. Epistemology is a big fancy word for one of those "conventions of the mind" that humanity relied upon for thousands of years before attempting to rigorously study it.

If, instead, you meant to imply that epistemology is an annoying waste of time that boils down to the caricature refrain "But how do you know that?" then I guess I don't have anything meaningful to offer to you. Either you feel that the study of knowledge is beneath you, or you genuinely don't see its merit. I would hope this was not what you meant.

@Sentenal & J esq: Unfortunately, that's been my experience with epistemology.  The teacher who taught ToK, though a nice person, was far from competent in the science of epistemology, which made it both a hassle and an ocean of sophistry to even be in the class.  Quite simply put, the aptly termed endless refrain of "how do you know?" by itself is not epistemology; it's an exercise in mockery, both of the other person in a discussion and of epistemology itself.  Sentenal is right on his stance on the annoyance of pseudo-philosophy; with any given response, I can ask some variation of "how do you know?"  It would end up being like the Mindy/Buttons sequences from Animaniacs.

"blah blah blah"

"Why?"

"blah blah blah"

"Why?"

"blah blah blah"

"Why?"

"Because it just is, OK?"

"...why?"

"ARGH!"

"OK I LOVE YOU BYE BYE!"

This is a simplification of why one must have one set or another of a priori assumptions upon which to base their understanding of reality.  The point of credible epistemology is examining the validity of different sets of assumptions and the worldviews they provide to determine the credibility of a point of view.  In a debate, people will often tell you to "look at it from the other side's point of view."  This is a very vague response that means little, if anything.  A more precise statement would be to examine the situation using the thought processes of the one you're debating.  Rather than the argument, if one picks at the opponent's epistemological framework, their entire argument collapses.  It's both less time-consuming and more thorough, because you kill two birds with one stone.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 02:06:02 am by Hadriel »

Sentenal

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« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2005, 11:07:51 pm »
Were really going everywhere with this, arn't we?  First its time, then advanced math, and now philosophy.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2005, 12:40:25 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
Were really going everywhere with this, arn't we?  First its time, then advanced math, and now philosophy.

Just waiting for Mr. Froggy to get on with his main feature. I'm curious to see what it looks like.

As for your experiences, Hadriel, I think you're either talking about a bad teacher (as opposed to bad subject matter), or perhaps just never understood the material properly. (If you'll forgive me.) Throwing in a package of a priori starting conditions is not going to "cure" epistemology, which sounds to me like an oversimplified corruption of the basic rationalist position. It has been my experience that, where one structures her or his arguments correctly, the only such pre-assumption that needs to be made is that oneself and the universe are both real, and that the former is verifiably embedded in the latter--which is to say, has some means of observing at least some part of its factual state; "how do you know" is reducible to this, most other burdens of proof relating to it can be transferred to an opponent with little effort, and a great deal of understanding can flow thereafter. And in any case, asking "how do you know" all the time may be mundane, but it's a question we should be asking ourselves every day, every time we come to some important understanding...a question we should answer to the best of our satisfaction, always.

And speaking of understandings, when it comes to message boards I would be wary of any such understanding you may have reached on the subject of anything, let alone epistemology, based on what people have told you on some forum. I don't need to remind you how much bunk is out there. I know my saying that comes with a certain measure of irony since I just gave you a lecture, but I leave it to your judgment what to make of that. And in the same spirit, "sophisty" is using the jargon of the trade, like the concept of a priori knowledge, to feign a masterful understanding of the topic at hand.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2005, 01:53:25 am »
Hm. After reading the Wikipedia entry, I don't think I could ever get into this mode of "quantifying" base statements as this. This is partly why I state that I do not wish to get involved in heavy philosophy; as Philosopher's quote says, it seems to be taking a simple, logical statement and breaking it into the most complex manner of speaking and classification possible. Perhaps I rely too heavily on experiences and my own personal growth; I just cannot consider the possibility of trying to apply such scientific and categorical methodology to something so impalpable. I'm not a full blown relativist, but I do believe that some truths may differ to some, while there remain basic ideas rooted in human sentience -- such as the hesitation to harm others -- that can be muted.

Whether this statement can be viewed as childish by high level philosophers, I'd rather focus time on living and gaining experience than actually trying to quantify things on paper (except in matters of writing a journal). I do enough self-centered thinking and pondering in my own time, and it actually becomes pretty annoying when I'm trying to work out and maintain a single mind on something.

Hadriel

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« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2005, 11:20:03 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Sentenal
Were really going everywhere with this, arn't we?  First its time, then advanced math, and now philosophy.

Just waiting for Mr. Froggy to get on with his main feature. I'm curious to see what it looks like.

As for your experiences, Hadriel, I think you're either talking about a bad teacher (as opposed to bad subject matter), or perhaps just never understood the material properly. (If you'll forgive me.) Throwing in a package of a priori starting conditions is not going to "cure" epistemology, which sounds to me like an oversimplified corruption of the basic rationalist position. It has been my experience that, where one structures her or his arguments correctly, the only such pre-assumption that needs to be made is that oneself and the universe are both real, and that the former is verifiably embedded in the latter--which is to say, has some means of observing at least some part of its factual state; "how do you know" is reducible to this, most other burdens of proof relating to it can be transferred to an opponent with little effort, and a great deal of understanding can flow thereafter. And in any case, asking "how do you know" all the time may be mundane, but it's a question we should be asking ourselves every day, every time we come to some important understanding...a question we should answer to the best of our satisfaction, always.

And speaking of understandings, when it comes to message boards I would be wary of any such understanding you may have reached on the subject of anything, let alone epistemology, based on what people have told you on some forum. I don't need to remind you how much bunk is out there. I know my saying that comes with a certain measure of irony since I just gave you a lecture, but I leave it to your judgment what to make of that. And in the same spirit, "sophistry" is using the jargon of the trade, like the concept of a priori knowledge, to feign a masterful understanding of the topic at hand.


Since many of the others in the class thought it was annoying as well, I'd err on the side of calling it bad teaching.  

On the subject of message boards: The particular people I refer to were also in the IB curriculum and regularly posted with class and insight, just as I'd be more apt to believe or at least consider something that say, you, ZeaLitY, or Daniel would say than some random GameFAQs guy.

On assumptions: I'm not trying to cure the whole of epistemology here, just the epistemology curriculum taught at Bell.  The teacher was willing to question even the base assumption that the universe is real and we live in it.  This should be obvious, but I'll state it for reinforcement: if we are all in the Matrix or something, there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. So why bother with that course of discussion?  Why bother questioning that which is truly self-evident?  In doing that, we take time away from more productive discussion on the worldviews of humans and the debate on how credible their assumptions and sources of knowledge are, because that's what makes up legitimate epistemology.

On sophistry: I don't claim to be a Guru of Epistemology, but I can hold my own.  Sophistry is, rather than a claim to mastery, one of my favorite insults to use when I'm calling someone on bullshit.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2005, 01:19:20 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
On assumptions: I’m not trying to cure the whole of epistemology here, just the epistemology curriculum taught at Bell.

Ah, so. That’s a narrower claim. I’ll go along with you on that one.

Quote from: Hadriel
The teacher was willing to question even the base assumption that the universe is real and we live in it.  This should be obvious, but I’ll state it for reinforcement: if we are all in the Matrix or something, there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it. So why bother with that course of discussion?  Why bother questioning that which is truly self-evident?

“Am I real?” “Is the world real?” Those are good questions that all of us need to consider thoughtfully at some point. What we do not need is to then obsess over the possible ramifications of these ideas, as some folks are apt to do for a small number of reasons, and in that regard I will agree with you explicitly that we must draw a line between the groundless and legitimate sorts of speculation. But the questions themselves deserve to be asked.

Why is that, exactly? Well, I notice that you went out of your way to emphasize “there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it,” should we discover ourselves to be living in the proverbial Matrix. But how do you know that? What makes you so sure that, if we were to discover that some aspect of “the universe” is illusory, we would not be able to increase our overall awareness of the deepest possible truths, and perhaps increase our power as individuals and as a species along the way? I have yet to meet a piece of knowledge that has dis-empowered me.

Besides, cheer up. It’s not as hopeless as it all might seem. When I sat down to turn the “Am I real?” question over in my mind a few times some years back, I ultimately decided I liked the simplest answer of all: Cogito, ergo sum. I worked with that for a few years and eventually came up with my own, homemade idea. Because “I think,” therefore I am…at liberty in a state not unlike that of purgatory to use my thoughts to develop a more reasonable answer to the question of whether I am real. And “real” would take form in the physical world as a case of identity. So the question translates to whether I have an identity, which brings me to my point. I define—and here’s some a priori shenanigans for you—I define the sentient will as the seat of identity. The will is the status board to the mind’s engine. Having a will is proof of my own identity, and yours, and anyone else’s, and therefore the reality of the same.

You are welcome to counter—I have had this discussion before, after all—that my will is not my own, that some “outside manipulator” is merely giving me the illusion of having a will, that all of this speculation is just someone’s evening television show. But because of the structure of my premise, such a claim is irrelevant to the debate. Me and my will and my identity are all words for the same thing. In other words, there is no “me” separate to my will. And bear in mind that the sentient will is abstract in any case; it belies the quantifiable makeup of the human brain. So whether we are what we appear to ourselves to be, or are indeed no more than someone else’s dream, if a sentient will exists at all then it cannot be illusory. It is based upon something. And, because we are inseparable from our will, therefore if a will exists then so does the identity who owns that will.

To put it in the simplest terms: The fact that I appear to myself to be anything, makes me something.

The caveat of my position is that it settles for a perhaps shallower form of existence than might be comfortable. It doesn’t establish the physical nature of my existence. I may indeed be someone’s television show, a wild speculation hampered by any shred of evidence. But the possibility is there. And, of course, in the more general sense my little equation between identity and sentient will doesn’t allege that my presumed existence is situated at the “supreme level of absolute reality,” if you will. Well, I have an idea about that too. We all live in the same universe. If there is such a plane of elemental trueness of existence, then life as I know it depends upon it in some way, by the very notion of absolute reality. For this stage in our evolution, that is good enough for me. I shall be content enough to pursue my ambitions as long as I live, no matter the nature of my existence or the circumstances of the same. And, because the pursuit of knowledge is among my highest ambitions, perhaps I will find a way to fathom the same. “Aim high” and all of that.

But in closing, I would say that having persuaded myself that I am real is a source of satisfaction. It wasn’t a waste of time to reason out to myself back then, and it wasn’t a waste of time to try and explain to you here today.

Quote from: Hadriel
On sophistry: I don’t claim to be a Guru of Epistemology, but I can hold my own.  Sophistry is, rather than a claim to mastery, one of my favorite insults to use when I’m calling someone on bullshit.

I unashamedly admire elitism, which I suspect is synonymous with your concept of sophistry. My respect for epistemology shares only some, small part of that. You can have all the money on Earth, all the riches, perfect health, a long life, the greatest inner contentment imaginable, and even a vastness of acquired knowledge and professional discipline…and indeed these are all good things to have…but you can never fathom the great weight of your existence and its potential if you do not strive, with some success, to be aware. Anyone who when presented the opportunity chooses to forsake a greater understanding, is beneath contempt. You know, here we are chatting it up on a forum started by a guy who fell in love with the profound teachings of the magical Kingdom of Zeal, a kingdom representing the ambitions that drive our restless souls to ever greater heights...a kingdom borne of much hard work and sacrifice. How did such a place ever come to be, even as a map in a video game? By precisely this sort of thing, I tell you. Illumination is the currency of the dreams of humankind, and you can’t counterfeit that.

Hadriel

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« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2005, 06:18:42 pm »
What kind of elitism is it that you admire, though?  I'd say intellectual elitism would qualify, but what about moral elitism?  To me, intellectual elitist tendencies that are backed up with solid facts are not so much elitist as simply having the balls to stand up for yourself.  Sophistry, in my mind, equals the following: Blatant impressionistic twisting of facts with no regard for logic.  This behavior is usually practiced by a debater when they're getting demolished and they know it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 02:07:52 am by Hadriel »

Sir Frog

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« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2005, 08:19:02 pm »
These past few posts have made me curious:  How old is everyone here and what is everyone's educational background?

I've got a Bachelor of Commerce (Finance) and this fall I'll be starting a MSc Financial Economics at Oxford University. I should point out that I have zero knowledge of philosophy (other than my own musings); otherwise, I would contribute to the currect discussion.

DarkGizmo

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« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2005, 08:21:38 pm »
ah ah ah, I just finished highschool (in Quebec it ends after secondary 5th) and I didn't undestood a thing :P