The Masamune and split timelines

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The Masamune was created when the Red Knife was embedded into the Mammon Machine. Let's assume that in the "First" Timeline (the one where Crono hasn't changed anything yet), Melchior was the one who used the Red Knife to try to stop the machine, or at the very least, gave it to someone else to do it. And then, we have the timeline in which Melchior was sealed away, and Crono saved him, obtained the Red Knife, and used it to try and stop the Mammon Machine, creating the Masamune in the process.

Now my question is this: What about the timeline in between?

Think about it: When Magus goes back to 12,000 BC, let's assume that he's the one who told Queen Zeal that Melchior would turn on her, because he didn't want anyone to get in his way to kill Lavos or some other twisted RPG logic (no offence, fellow fans). We all know about Crono going back to 12,000 BC, having his butt handed to him on a silver platter by Dalton's Gollum, and being sent through the Gate, which was sealed immediately afterward by Schala.

So, what happens in this timeline, the one where Melchior's still sealed away, but Crono couldn't save him?

Because Melchior couldn't be there (or give anyone the Red Knife), the knife could never be made into the Masamune. And if the knife was never made into the Masamune, most of what happened in history from 600 AD onwards becomes moot.

So my question, I guess, would be... what happens in that timeline? Since the Masamune was never made, no one could have gotten it and tried to kill Magus off with it. Even assuming in the "first" timeline, where the Masamune was broken, someone tried to stop Magus and failed, we still have Cyrus still alive because he never had the weapon to stand up to Magus. That would mean Glenn never became Frog, and maybe the Mystics even won the war, and 1000 AD would be completely different.

Of course, this is a pretty far-fetched idea, but still, you never know when it comes to alternate timelines. Anyway, that's my question, and I would really like to know if anyone here knows the answer. Thank you for your time.

[Acacia Sgt]

Ah, this one has an explanation. It doesn't matter if the Masamune gets completed or not anymore.

Because, the original one, while still in need of repair, was sent to 1,000 AD to be fixed by Melchior, then brought back to 600 AD for Frog to wield.

But of course, that is not problem, it's the fact it would be nonexistent beforehand changes the events of the Mystic War by a far margin.

Hmm...

[Thought]

Since the Masamune was never made, no one could have gotten it and tried to kill Magus off with it.

Ah, but there wouldn't be a Magus, either. That is their is the first Janus/Magus, who becomes the prophet. But in the next go around, Janus doesn't show up at the Black Omen (as far as we know) so he wouldn't have been sent  to the 600ish. Presumably Ozzie would have led the war himself and been defeated through normal means.

However, good question. It makes sense that there was an interim future, but no affects were displayed in game.

[Acacia Sgt]

Ah, but there wouldn't be a Magus, either. That is their is the first Janus/Magus, who becomes the prophet. But in the next go around, Janus doesn't show up at the Black Omen (as far as we know) so he wouldn't have been sent  to the 600ish. Presumably Ozzie would have led the war himself and been defeated through normal means.

But doesn't Janus still appears in 5XX AD regardless due to TTI? It's not like the Masamune itself had a hand with the Janus>Magus transition, only that it had to be left out of the humans' reach at all costs due to his weakness to it.

[Mr Bekkler]

If the Compendium adopted my Smart Time theory in lieu of TB and TTI, none of this would be a problem. AND it would be less confusing. Basically, the entity, like the player, has an outside view of the timeline. The first paradox/mistake we see is Marle disappearing, which already debunks TTI (as does "Ruined Future" Doan and the Reptite ending and some other stuff, this isn't the place to argue I know), then the entity learns from it and doesn't let it happen again after that, which is not to say after 1000AD on the timeline but rather after that event in the sequence of temporal changes that the team makes, or the order of things as the entity sees them.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7666.0.html


With this in mind, it goes back to what Thought said.

"... It makes sense that there was an interim future, but no affects were displayed in game."

I believe the Red Knife is simply the Masamune before it was finished. It is the dreamstone foundation to which Mammon energy was added. In the original timeline, there is no Black Omen, so the Mammon Machine was not destroyed, but Zeal fell ANYWAY. Not before Melchior had time to finish his creation, and he no doubt had unrestrained access to the Machine, being a guru of the nation. In the interim timeline, what we know had to happen based on what characters you have that are with you is that history had to be at least similar enough that everyone in the party was born, is alive, and was able to join the party. Everything else is pure speculation, because we just don't see it.

[Thought]

But doesn't Janus still appears in 5XX AD regardless due to TTI? It's not like the Masamune itself had a hand with the Janus>Magus transition, only that it had to be left out of the humans' reach at all costs due to his weakness to it.

Well TTI causes its own problems, but setting those aside, if Janus still appears in 5XXAD because of TTI, then the completed Masamune also appears in 600 because of TTI, since the parts were take to 1000 AD to be repaired then returned. Assuming the party gets Frog some magic before he faces Magus, then even Frog will be there to defeat Magus. So either there is no Magus, or Magus is still defeated as per normal.