Author Topic: Health / Exercise / Diet & Animal Rights  (Read 3889 times)

Mr Bekkler

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« on: June 24, 2011, 07:06:15 pm »
I hold the value of an animal's life the same as my own

I don't. Put it this way, if my house was on fire and I was likely to die if I went inside, but my dog was inside, I'd try to get him out but I wouldn't risk my life for a slim chance of saving him. If he lives but I die, he is now a homeless dog and will get hit by a car, starve, get attacked, or taken to the pound and put to sleep. But if I live I can get another dog who doesn't have a home and I can go on to be a productive member of society. We are not equal. He is not a person.

If eating meat is so bad, then we have a problem. Thousands upon thousands of animals are EVIL. They must be punished! I know! I'll eat them! Peta doesn't have to lift a finger, those pesky carnivores are taken care of, and I'm well-fed, all with one stone!

I do love my dog. And most animals. But survival instinct says if it's gotta be either him or me, I'll make sure it's me.

Besides, Peta's methods are ridiculous, they have become a parody of their own message, and because of this, nobody listens to them.

Syna

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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 01:45:11 pm »
That goes for you, too, PETA. I mean, I love the aminals. I love the aminals a lot. But c'mon; we can worry about the aminals after we've fixed the people problem.

But how many meat factories will slaughter through scores of animals in an inhumane fashion in the meantime? How many species will go extinct? How many more generations of people will go on completely objectifying animals before we "solve" the people problem -- ignoring rafts of evidence that suggest that animals are far more intelligent than we give them credit for, just so that we can go on flattering ourselves and using animals however we'd like?

I'm a student of nature. I don't have a fluffy view of what goes on out there. But there is something unquestionably very wrong about this.

The people problem includes the animal problem, and the animal problem has nothing to do with valuing your life above an animal's, domesticating and using animals, or eating meat in principle.

(In practice is another story: eating meat is typically unethical, at least, as far as I can tell, for people in first-world countries. Beyond the issues of humane treatment, it's the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment -- worse than driving a car. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm not a full vegetarian nor do I think everyone should be. However, I limit my meat consumption to once a week, and try to get the meat from humane farms.)

I hate PETA because instead of actually doing anything good for animals and our relationships with them, or even creating awareness about the issues, their crazy antics are the first thing people bring up when animal rights are discussed. Yeah, PETA, you throw flour all over Lindsay Lohan for her furwearing habits. That'll do something positive for the world!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 01:49:38 pm by Syna »

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 04:14:29 pm »
Speaking of this, the Netherlands voted to ban Kosher and Halaal preparations.

Score one for the good guys. Those techniques were developed to be "humane" according to an antiquated paradigm. Science has demonstrated that animals have the capacity for and still do suffer a lot if their throats are slit. May these practices be relegated to history forever.

tushantin

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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 05:41:34 pm »
But how many meat factories will slaughter through scores of animals in an inhumane fashion in the meantime? How many species will go extinct? How many more generations of people will go on completely objectifying animals before we "solve" the people problem -- ignoring rafts of evidence that suggest that animals are far more intelligent than we give them credit for, just so that we can go on flattering ourselves and using animals however we'd like?

Christ, that's... just what I said here at the Compendium back when, but... still the most important thing that... Ah, forget it. I thumbs up on this quote.  :( This quote needs to be quoted. A quote within a quote.

(In practice is another story: eating meat is typically unethical, at least, as far as I can tell, for people in first-world countries. Beyond the issues of humane treatment, it's the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment -- worse than driving a car. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm not a full vegetarian nor do I think everyone should be. However, I limit my meat consumption to once a week, and try to get the meat from humane farms.)
I agree with this wholeheartedly. But problem arises with the growth of population which demands their foods to be mass-produced, in turn breeding and stuffing animals and slaughtering without mercy. Chickens I can understand, but...

...Dolphins? Sharks? Elephants? The latter was basically the result of two things: famished lands and quick meat money. All of this can be avoided by properly accounting of nutrition distribution.

I say this one thing, though. Just for my own personal experiment I decided to become a vegetarian, to know how it could affect a person's physical and mental condition. I wouldn't need to detail on the conclusions, but I did grow closer to nature and I did understand the necessity of organism consumption cycle, but needless to say the first time I tasted meat after those 10 years (warning: horrid words ahead, so look away now) it tasted like I was having a dead, rotten corpse. And I could feel its dead, lifeless eyes looking back at me, pleading for mercy while I consumed it. For a philosopher who could almost read an animal's mind/feelings/ponderings, often personifying them, the thought alone was grotesque, let alone the practice of it.

Speaking of this, the Netherlands voted to ban Kosher and Halaal preparations.

Score one for the good guys. Those techniques were developed to be "humane" according to an antiquated paradigm. Science has demonstrated that animals have the capacity for and still do suffer a lot if their throats are slit. May these practices be relegated to history forever.
Finally! Though I'm curious. What kind of animals are sacrificed at Kosher?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 05:47:11 pm by tushantin »

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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2011, 06:16:41 pm »
Oh, it's more about dietary preparation. The theory goes that such systems were created to ensure meat was fresh, and not ridden with disease or anything. For example, Kosher forbids consumption of animals that were killed by other animals, or died from natural causes. It has to be fresh.

These systems have long outlived their usefulness, though. There's so much spiritual bullshit in there, it's insane. There are entire classes of animals forbidden to eat, sections of dead animals, etc.

Syna

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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2011, 07:08:53 pm »
Right on, Netherlands!

Just for my own personal experiment I decided to become a vegetarian, to know how it could affect a person's physical and mental condition. I wouldn't need to detail on the conclusions, but I did grow closer to nature and I did understand the necessity of organism consumption cycle, but needless to say the first time I tasted meat after those 10 years (warning: horrid words ahead, so look away now) it tasted like I was having a dead, rotten corpse. And I could feel its dead, lifeless eyes looking back at me, pleading for mercy while I consumed it. For a philosopher who could almost read an animal's mind/feelings/ponderings, often personifying them, the thought alone was grotesque, let alone the practice of it.

We may differ in that part of my personal philosophy involves, in a way, acknowledging meaningfulness in certain kinds of suffering, and I believe that in certain periods of times past, we had much more functional ways of killing animals. In Greek and Egyptian religion, for instance, animal sacrifice during rituals was a way of adding meat to the diet as well as honoring the gods. I believe those practices encouraged people to understand what they were doing -- taking a life for their own life-- in a way that did not objectify the animal. That is important, if nothing else, for the humans, who saw the animals they ate every day and often raised them and were doubtlessly attached to them. (This too is an antiquated paradigm, of course, but I think it was a good one as far as meat consumption goes.)

So I'm in no way against eating meat on principle, as I said before. But what you described is the reality that even people like me, who have a deep emotional involvement in what we're doing to the environment, cannot really instinctually accept on a daily basis. I've seen pork meat exponentially more times than I've ever seen a real live pig. There is something wrong with that. You forget that you are eating a corpse. And in becoming more vegetarian, I've experienced something very similar to what you described: the reality of what I am doing is much more apparent. (It's also much, much harder to eat a lot of meat. I can stomach it still myself, of course, but I am way more satisfied with just a bit of it.)

Additionally, I've learned to enjoy all kinds of vegetable tastes that I hadn't appreciated before. When you're surrounded by fatty, immediately gratifying foods, the foods that actually nourish you are harder to appreciate. Your appetite adapts.

tushantin

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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2011, 08:00:26 pm »
Ah. I still fail to see what fresh meat has anything to do with spiritual needs. See, Purity in those days not only tied in with spiritual aspects but also physical cleansing, such as bathing, and a long tradition was made so people would clean themselves before any ceremonies begin (obviously, we do it today too, especially at birthdays, parties and weddings). Purity consisted in avoiding illnesses, lest it affects the masses, and it was understandable to choose the best and untainted beast for sacrifice. Then again, even you wouldn't have meat from an animal that died of illness, would you?

If so, I hardly find the tradition insane besides the point that animals need to be slaughtered for tradition's sake. So I guess I'm glad Kosher was banned. But now they must also ban needless killing of certain animal species.

In Greek and Egyptian religion, for instance, animal sacrifice during rituals was a way of adding meat to the diet as well as honoring the gods. I believe those practices encouraged people to understand what they were doing -- taking a life for their own life-- in a way that did not objectify the animal. That is important, if nothing else, for the humans, who saw the animals they ate every day and often raised them and were doubtlessly attached to them. (This too is an antiquated paradigm, of course, but I think it was a good one as far as meat consumption goes.)
For Egyptian, that's understandable since it was a famished land (or it wasn't, and was rather powerful; I forget), where food sources were of concern especially since Homo Sapiens were carnivorous travelers until they established farming for the first time. It was adapt, devour and survive before then, but when language erupted and intelligence evolved we became open in thought's realms. Animal sacrifices were important back then, and it kept us adapting to meat. What you say is true, and is also true for Aztec cannibalism, and perhaps still true for Bakri Id of Muslim tradition, where Goats were grown and sacrificed once a year. However, there's a problem with that:

For the current sacrifices that take place in the name of older religion is hardly prepared the old fashioned way. Take Bakri Id for instance: in the old times where agriculture was scarce in Muslim and Arab regions, similar sacrificial traditions began. However, if you've noticed, these days the traditions completely disregard the affection part and keep the slaughter idea, with people buying mature goats from the markets, bring them home and have them slaughtered at a defined date. This instantly objectifies the animals who's flesh we consume, something the sacrificial ceremonies have been trying to avoid.

And before an Atheist uses my words as an excuse to point a finger at religion, I ask you: What's worse than sacrificial ceremonies? KFC, which mass-produces meat and stirs more gluttony across the world, at the cost of millions of animal lives a day. See, at least the former has people value lives. But for a consumer, it's as easy as to go ask for an extra Chicken McPuff.

This kinda reminds me of an old, tribal philosophy (whether it was Vaanara or something else, I forget): For every time you yearn a morsel so you could walk further, for every time you take the life of another to extend your own, pray. And thank your prey. For the strength of those limbs that is now your own, for those breath in those lungs that is now your zeal, don't let it go waste and thank the prey who saved you.

Usually the prayer ends with a proper burial of your prey. It was quite a noble tradition.

I've seen pork meat exponentially more times than I've ever seen a real live pig. There is something wrong with that. You forget that you are eating a corpse. And in becoming more vegetarian, I've experienced something very similar to what you described: the reality of what I am doing is much more apparent. (It's also much, much harder to eat a lot of meat. I can stomach it still myself, of course, but I am way more satisfied with just a bit of it.)
:o Thank you! And then there's people like my uncle around who just can't stomach vegetables. He wants meat, day and night, fish or beef, and I begin to wonder where all that protein really goes. When it's anything but meat he gets irritated. TBH, he isn't alone: although a handful of us realize what's happening, several thousands in the country would prefer... er, I'll stop here before I offend anyone unintentionally, but you get the idea.

Additionally, I've learned to enjoy all kinds of vegetable tastes that I hadn't appreciated before.
XD That just made my day.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 08:19:35 pm »
Additionally, I've learned to enjoy all kinds of vegetable tastes that I hadn't appreciated before. When you're surrounded by fatty, immediately gratifying foods, the foods that actually nourish you are harder to appreciate. Your appetite adapts.

I will spend thousands of dollars to celebrate the day this actually happens for me. I'm still forcing myself to eat vegetables, thinking, "I'm not going to let this food beat me..." Hopefully soon.

tushantin

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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 08:33:48 pm »
Additionally, I've learned to enjoy all kinds of vegetable tastes that I hadn't appreciated before. When you're surrounded by fatty, immediately gratifying foods, the foods that actually nourish you are harder to appreciate. Your appetite adapts.

I will spend thousands of dollars to celebrate the day this actually happens for me. I'm still forcing myself to eat vegetables, thinking, "I'm not going to let this food beat me..." Hopefully soon.
Palak Paneer
Paneer Tikka
Malai Kofta
Hyderabadi Biriyani
Stuffed Brinjal Curry

You're welcome! :D Send in the cheque to Arctic; where my North Pole bank is; but anyway there's a whole lot to enjoy!

Syna

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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 05:43:21 pm »
I will spend thousands of dollars to celebrate the day this actually happens for me. I'm still forcing myself to eat vegetables, thinking, "I'm not going to let this food beat me..." Hopefully soon.

If it's any consolation, I thought I disliked vegetables for the longest time. It turns out I disliked bad produce that had to be shipped to the suburbs and soggy fast food lettuce. After I made getting good, fresh produce (preferably local and all that) a priority, it got much easier - it's a bit more expensive, but still a lot less expensive than buying prepared or processed foods and meat.

It's been several years of experimenting with various cuisine styles before I found what works for me. * I don't like most salads at all and never have, but I recently ate a really awesome Vietnamese-style salad with ginger in it that I actually really enjoyed. Your tastes surprise you!

* By this I mean "eating other people's awesome cooking and trying to mimic it in a lazy way," because I am a horrible, slovenly cook. I consider it a victory if I can keep myself from getting distracted and leaving the kitchen while the water is boiling. I have to listen to lectures or watch something in the kitchen to maintain interest and prevent the house from burning down.

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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 05:53:33 pm »
I do at least have that going for me; I'm usually the person in the group who's willing to try new foods (though nothing insect related). I have no idea what to believe about produce anymore. I've shown what I've eat to my friend in Milano, and she's in disbelief of the size of American oranges and other fruits. She also swears the fresher the better, but I guess I've simply never tried to get really fresh stuff. I'm guessing a farmer's market or something? I'm hoping they're differentiated on a point other than "organic", since studies would have me to believe that there's truly little difference between organic and mass-marketed foods (most of the time). Siiigh... I should really try to find the best, soon, as I'm going to go on a lifting diet soon and it involves a ton of fruits and vegetables. I really envy that friend, as she's been able to try a variety of special things, including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morus_alba, which I've found to be logistically impossible to get in my current position. I've added eating it to my list of ambitions.

Well, perhaps we should all split this to a dietary/cooking thread.

tushantin

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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 06:10:50 pm »
Well, perhaps we should all split this to a dietary/cooking thread.
Hah, then lets do this! I have a feeling you, and a lot of us, will benefit from this; especially me who, due to lack of culinary skills, occasionally sets the kitchen on fire.

Syna

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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2011, 09:32:44 pm »
I have no idea what to believe about produce anymore.


I feel you. The amount of conflicting information out there is insane, and your friend is right to be shocked by how ridiculous American produce is. That's making me really nostalgic for true Italian food; their diet is full of things I am totally crazy for, and I had some of the best fruit of my life when I went there for awhile.

I do tend to find that organic produce is the best quality, and so I buy it fairly often for that reason, but I'm not so convinced it's better for us/the environment at all either. Even farmer's markets are not completely reliable; some of them sell the same stuff that comes in from the trucks. I've seen kiwis at more than one! (It's depressing to me that an American would go to a damn farmer's market and think they were doing the environment a favor by eating a 'local' kiwi. Not that kiwis are off limits, but you know what I mean. That's how disconnected from nature we are..) You sort of have to shop around a lot and get yourself up at inconvenient hours on weekends, unfortunately.

I guess what I've managed to do is really try to study what's in season and pay attention to where the produce comes from. I don't need peaches in winter, and neither does anybody else in America, thank you, and if you pay attention you can tell the difference in the taste because the peaches didn't have to travel hundreds of miles to get to you. There's no way I could buy local exclusively, but I do try to focus on areas that are relatively closeby. All of this gets tiresome because I honestly just hate to cook and I have to rotate my menu quite alot, but my friends and I manage with group meals for each other and giving each other ideas where we can. (It's so much easier to buy groceries for a family than for one or two people, anyway.)

Quote
 Siiigh... I should really try to find the best, soon, as I'm going to go on a lifting diet soon and it involves a ton of fruits and vegetables.

Ohh. Are you using a particular program? I'm lifting right now myself and am managing the epic required protein intake only by downing whey powder, like, every three hours (and I'm only lifting twice a week, and not a whole lot). All the lifting programs I see emphasize lots of meat.

Quote
Well, perhaps we should all split this to a dietary/cooking thread.

I'm down for this! It's a very important part of life and it's hard to get practical, ethical information on it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 09:36:08 pm by Syna »

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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 10:15:26 pm »
I'm usually the person in the group who's willing to try new foods (though nothing insect related).

That's sad. Some bugs out there taste awesome.

tushantin

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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 02:39:21 am »
Ohh. Are you using a particular program? I'm lifting right now myself and am managing the epic required protein intake only by downing whey powder, like, every three hours (and I'm only lifting twice a week, and not a whole lot). All the lifting programs I see emphasize lots of meat.
Bullshit (well, partially)! I only occasionally have meat, do plenty of squats, pushups, lift dumbbells (not above 4 kg on each hand, but then I can't monetarily afford more than that). Sure, I may not be buff, but plenty of meat sounds just like an excuse to have some extras. Meat is important, but so is your program. Do you burn more protein than you intake? Are you into aerobics/athletics?

I'm allergic to eggs especially, but so far I've been getting the required amount of proteins solely from enough vegetables and fruits. Banana and milk (the latter is ALWAYS good), tofu (substituting Paneer I showed earlier), soybeans, kidney beans, and sometimes (as in, rarely) sea food. There are plenty of other good sources. You just need to plan ahead and keep an eye out.