Poll

Who do you think is the strongest Guru?

Belthesar
10 (41.7%)
Gaspar
6 (25%)
Melchior
8 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: July 06, 2005, 05:59:59 am

Author Topic: The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?  (Read 7394 times)

Lordchander

  • Time Traveler (+800)
  • *
  • Posts: 807
  • I might come back one of these days...
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« on: July 06, 2005, 05:59:59 am »
This was spawned off from the Gaspar: Guru of Time thread, so u may recognise this a bit.

So, who is the strongest Guru? What do u all think?


~LC

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2005, 06:34:44 am »
What are "all" aspects exactly? I mean, you'd think Melchior was the strongest physically, Belthasar was the strongest scientifically, and Gasper was the strongest...philosophically?

Lordchander

  • Time Traveler (+800)
  • *
  • Posts: 807
  • I might come back one of these days...
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2005, 06:36:50 am »
all aspects basically means the strongest in like magical power, physical strength and so forth. So who is the best overall or in each of those aspects?



~LC

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2005, 06:37:51 am »
In fact, Melchior is the strongest philosophically: He deals with spirits and the such.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2005, 06:41:35 am »
Temporally then? No, wait, I guess the word would be historically...Yeah...

Lordchander

  • Time Traveler (+800)
  • *
  • Posts: 807
  • I might come back one of these days...
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2005, 06:42:20 am »
Quote from: Legend
In fact, Melchior is the strongest philosophically: He deals with spirits and the such.


And he is also the strongest in physical strength (presumably). Seeing as he is the Guru of Life, which could also mean death (which is just another part of life), and usually a person who has swords and great strength will kill. But the fact remains...who would Melchior kill? The Earthbound Ones? Surely not...


~LC, dont forget to vot!

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2005, 06:44:06 am »
Just because you have weapons, know weapons, and have skill with weapons, that does not mean you have to use them.

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2005, 06:45:47 am »
Melchior dosen't kill anyone. He's in fact opposed to killing. A Guru of life would be opposed to death, killing. Just because he's good at forging weapons isn't his fault: What will he do, forget how to forge? Besides, he needs to earn a living.

Lordchander

  • Time Traveler (+800)
  • *
  • Posts: 807
  • I might come back one of these days...
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 06:47:00 am »
I guess your right, it was only speculation. But he does still seem to have a great knowledge with weapons, so in the aspect of weapon knowledge, Melchior would prob. take the cake...



~LC, dont forget to vote!!!! Plz!!!! I'll be sad... :cry:

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 09:31:31 am »
None of them are the strongest. But generally Gaspar is seen to be the leader of the Gurus. Belthasar is the guru who is in the lime light in CC and Melchior is in the Lime light in CT.

Gaspar would technically be the strongest in magic through game evidence in CT. He supposedly created the EoT and taught magic to Spekkio (a theory I heard somewhere). Even if he didn't, he did create the first ever Chrono Trigger.

Melchior is a master smith and studies living things, like the magical sapling that he gave to the woman in Zeal.

Belthasar is a scientific genius and created the Ocean Palace and Blackbird. Not to mention the Epoch and is a master stratagist (Project Kid).

Personally I think they’re only strong when they’re combined.

Melchior is like their publicist, Belthasar is their impresario of projects and Gaspar is like the rich person who carries all the plans out. I don’t think they could ever have had power in Zeal without the 3 of them combined. Once Gaspar left, Melchior was imprisoned at the Mountain of Woe and Belthasar (I guess) had to complete the Ocean Palace.

I still voted Belthasar because he's the only one that we really get to know in CC.

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2005, 10:21:46 am »
Intresting idea. The three combined DO make an unbeatable team. I wonder if they can create some kind of super invention with their combined knowledge, like "Lavos Disintegrator" or something to that effect.

Lavos: "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS THIS SHELL DOING, FLYING TOWARDS ME?!"

The three gurus: "Victory for the Zealian Union!"

Zatopek

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2005, 10:44:12 am »
It's slightly ironic how the gurus function/wind up in Trigger:

Melchoir, Guru of Life, makes weapons that kill (Masamune, Rainbow, etc.)

Gaspar, Guru of Time, ends up in a place where time ceases to exist, or else functions very strangely.

Belthasar, Guru of Reason, loses his sanity in the ruined future.

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2005, 10:55:40 am »
Hmm, I've never thought about it that way. Yeah, I guess it is ironic. But then again, the weapons Melchior forges end up killing Lavos, someone who's not part of the Planet's life.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2005, 01:42:53 pm »
Quote from: Zatopek
It's slightly ironic how the gurus function/wind up in Trigger:

Melchoir, Guru of Life, makes weapons that kill (Masamune, Rainbow, etc.)

Gaspar, Guru of Time, ends up in a place where time ceases to exist, or else functions very strangely.

Belthasar, Guru of Reason, loses his sanity in the ruined future.


I think that must be the most brought-up irony/quirk in the Chrono series. I've seen it mentioned no less than a dozen times.

Anyway...

That may be if one looks at it one way. But another way of looking at those terms is philisophical aproach. In that case, Melchior is Platonic, seeing things as being in the mould of 'universals', ideas which stand behind things and give them meaning (ie. a chair is a chair because there exists a universal archetype of a chair that gives meaning to the idea of chair). Life then could be seen as referring the the more mystical forces of the world, such as life and being behind things. Then Belthesar is Aristotilian, seeing truth as lying not behind things in some mystical realm, but rather in the thing itself. This is more in line with the progress of science (and, indeed, Belthesar seems very much the scientist, does he not?), especially since it was first Aristotle who put forward the theory of the four elements, used for so long. Finally, Gaspar looks not at the static being of things, but rather their interaction and reaction, drawing meaning therefrom - the passage of time, in other words, or perhaps fate. Essentially, if all three were to look at a stone, Melchior would wonder what mystical properties may lie in it, or perhaps what makes this stone a 'stone'; Belthesar would be more concerned classifying it and thinking what use may be made of its inherent physical properties; and Gaspar would wonder what circumstance brought the stone to be in their path, what caused it to be fashioned, and where its fate leads, and determines its identity therefrom. You see, the Three really are a perfect match, showing three aspects of the world: the mystic, the physical, and the transient. What glories they must have wrought working and understanding all together! Anyway, that's my own view on the matter, though I am certain that the irony of it all, as you have said, was in fact intentional in the game making.

Anyway, in so far as combat goes, and the might of each one... it is difficult to say, as each has their inherent strengths, and would victor in different fields of combat. Physically, I think all three, despite their age, would be quite strong; they are of Zeal, after all, and to my mind that is every bit as impressive as being, say, a Numenorean or such, and I think the magic burning within their veins would gift them surpassing strength of mind and body, so that even in their old age they would be keen and strong-limbed, for old men, that is.

Now, if the battle is grand, and calls for strategy and keen tactical thought, then it would be either Belthesar or Gaspar. Belthesar has the sharpest and most cunning mind of the Three, evident in his complex plan taking into account thousands of years and entire kingdoms. In that regard, he is likely a master tactician, and would victor in such a long-reaching battle. Gaspar could pose a challenge, however, with his knowledge of the intricacies of fate and the like. He could guess more of probabilities, if not complexities.

If the battle is smaller scale, say single combat, relying on strength, it would likely be Melchior who would victor: I consider him the youngest of the Three (with Gaspar the oldest), and he would likely be the strongest, bearing the mightiest array of weaponry and armoury, and be best with swords and weapons of such a sort. In terms of magic, however... here Belthesar would lose. Despite being of Zeal, I never saw him as much of a true sorcerer, but more apt to look to science, or rather mingle magic with science, as with the Epoch. So in battle, he would be at a loss in these means. In fact, he would be worst off in any form of small battle, rather being keen for the greater and grander reaching tactics of wars and the changing fortunes of kingdoms: a commander, not a fighter. But between Melchior and Gaspar... here I think it to be Gaspar coming to victor, simply for his command and knowledge over time.

Zatopek

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2005, 02:15:44 pm »
Quote
I think that must be the most brought-up irony/quirk in the Chrono series. I've seen it mentioned no less than a dozen times.


Haha, yes, I know I just dredged up an often-repeated observation.

Your commentary on the gurus was an interesting read.  One nit-picky point, however.  You say it was Aristotle that put forward the idea of four elements.  Maybe he made the idea more popular and more widely accepted, but I thought that much earlier the poet Hesiod had put forward his cosmological picture with the earth covered by water and surrounded by air and fire.  Thales thought the one constant was Water, Anaximander went for the vague "Indefinate Boundless," Anaximenes proposed "Aer," and Heraclitus went with Fire (along with establishing the notion of the "Logos"), and then of course there were the Pythagoreans with "All is Number."  Maybe Aristotle was the first to speak of 4 elements, but I thought it happened earlier, during the Pre-Socratic period.

Oh well, lets veer back to the topic after I sent us careening into Ancient philosophy.