Author Topic: Doppelgangers in the Black Omen  (Read 23401 times)

DarkGizmo

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2005, 01:31:43 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
1. DarkGizmo, It's 12,000BC not 12,000,000BC!


You think you're pretty clever eh?

Quote from: DarkGizmo
the mutant once defeated are nover there in any other time period if you defeat him in 1000 AD it won't be there in 12,000,000 BC


has you can see this fact is true sinc ethe Black Omen is not there, so next time THINK before posting!

EDIT: oops I forgot to say this was a joke and thanx for the tip I changed it I'll post the clones here in a min


Enker Of The Frost

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Theory, maybe an answer..
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2005, 05:06:14 pm »
My main idea on why the six characters are inside those weird tubes, and Magus is not is a double-edge...

Before the battle with Zeal, and quite a ways away, a Nu mentions something about this being a dream... I believe this can be interpreted as that since the six characters in question are not Enlightened in some way, shape, or form, they cannot fight Zeal in their natural bodies... They must fight her in their dreams, hence they appear to be sleeping right there...

This would also explain for Magus... He, as Janus was an enlightened one, hence he can do battle with Zeal without having to dream it...

And of course, if you killed Magus, then he's dead and wouldn't show up anyway.

What I'm getting at is that only the power of thinking one can do something, can achieve doing it. Not necessarily destroying the Mammon Machine, but battling Zeal and the Black Omen.

V_Translanka

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2005, 08:30:05 pm »
The double-edge being that it's quite rediculous and that Crono & Co. technically are "enlightened", just not as "advanced" as some of the other Zealians...8)

Enker Of The Frost

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lol!
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2005, 09:15:15 pm »
Well I wouldn't say rediculous... Crono & Co aren't really "enlightened" just because they have magic... You say it yourself, they aren't as advanced as the other Zealians, so they would possibly have to dream to beat Zeal...

Furthermore, it's said in Zeal that dreams become reality, so therefore, the only way for Crono & Co to actually, factually, beat Zeal and the Black Omen would have to be to dream of it...

It's kind of symbollic in a manner... In another part of the forum, they were talking about the Gurus and their dreams becoming literal interpretations, so it's possible that Crono & Co had to pull similar tactics, and Janus whether he's there or not, is so advanced, he doesn't really need to worry about sleeping and can handle it himself.

V_Translanka

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2005, 09:20:58 pm »
I've never believed that Guru's dreams thing being literal...

Also, if you go by that, then Doreen is also a plate of sashami, a bowling ball, a man, etc etc...:?

Enker Of The Frost

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2005, 09:23:27 pm »
I think Doreen was joking a little on that one...

V_Translanka

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2005, 09:29:35 pm »
Uh, it doesn't seem like she's joking, she's just not speaking literally just like all that other stuff you were talking about that a Nu says...It's just metaphorical or w/e...We don't see Crono & Co. go to sleep to battle Zeal. Nothing is really said that this is necessary. It's simply rediculous in it's overly complex ideals. Ockam's razor says: it didn't happen that way.

Enker Of The Frost

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2005, 09:34:47 pm »
Well we don't see Crono and Co go to sleep, but then, what's your explanation for six of them floating in odd little cylinders?

Lord J Esq

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2005, 09:56:03 pm »
I can’t believe I missed this thread! That room in the Black Omen is, to me, the most interesting unresolved question in Chrono Trigger. Here’s what I think about it:

I am not sure of the intent of the game designers when they made that room, but I have an idea. I disagree with the opinion someone had earlier that those doppelgangers are put there for us to wonder about. I think the room has a definite, thematic purpose, and my gut instinct is that I would be able to understand this purpose if I had been able to play the game in the original Japanese. But I am going to try and guess at it anyway.

The Black Omen has very little dialogue, and of course the Black Omen comes at the end of the game, so I would suspect the meaning of the doppelganger room is made clear by playing the entire game. In other words, if we look only at the doppelganger room, then we might not be able to understand what its significance is. For instance, by the time Frodo and Sam destroy the One Ring, we already know what they’re doing and why it is important. Similarly, by the time the player reaches the Black Omen in Chrono Trigger (Japan), he or she should already be knowledgeable thematically to understand everything that’s going to happen in there. I feel strongly that some of these cultural undertones were lost in the translation.

Going on my assumption that there is a purpose to the six doppelgangers, besides idle fancy, I would imagine that the doppelgangers and their limbo at the heart of the Black Omen represent the relationship between Lavos and humanity. It is a way of saying there’s a little Lavos in all of us, and that we have been corrupted from our true nature because of this. Thus, to defeat Lavos absolutely, we must not only destroy Lavos’ physical form, but also overcome the enemy within ourselves. I think the whole point of the doppelgangers is to show us that Lavos is a part of us, and we are a part of Lavos, and that we ourselves are therefore as much a part of the problem as of the solution.

Chrono Trigger and definitely Chrono Cross are steeped with motifs that link most of humanity’s highest creative achievements with Lavos’ destructive emanations, and I think seeing the six doppelgangers is supposed to cause the player a moment of soul-searching. Maybe call it the moral of the story: “Oh! Lavos isn’t truly foreign Lavos is inside us.” What was it that Masa said? “I guess it means that a Hero’s power comes from within.” Precisely! And, to put it all together, so too does a hero’s weakness also come from within. Are we merely pawns of Lavos, who controls our DNA and plans to rain destruction upon the world? No more than we are pawns of our own temptations for corruption. But there is an important difference! If we are not pawns of evil, if instead we are accomplices to it, then we can reform our own conduct.

It is very much a tough-love message. In the Chrono series, humanity is made to atone for being the source of so much blight upon the world—this comes up much more strongly in Chrono Cross than in Chrono Trigger, but the Kingdom of Zeal also represents the same idea—and yet at the end we are allowed to be a pure species at heart, a noble one, merely under the corrupt influence of an outside enemy that has wormed its way deep within us. The message is that we must become better human beings, and while this is certainly not going to be easy, both we and our world deserve to work hard for it.

Upon getting through the shell and fighting Lavos, we get to learn that Lavos has been using the life force of all the creatures in the world to sustain itself. That supports what I’ve said here, but in the English version it comes completely out of the blue. We never hear about it anywhere else in the game until that point. If my little theory is true—that is, if the meaning of the doppelganger room was lost in translation—then the Japanese version of the game probably deals with this topic in greater depth, perhaps throughout the game.

Leviticus

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2005, 12:09:25 am »
It could just be a matter of clones... but that doesn't really make sense. I think it does have something to do with the OP incident. The reason that Magus may not ebe there is because he wasn't in the party when it happened, and was therefore assumed to be completely unrelated to Crono and Co, and not a threat. To Zeal, he was just the prophet that betrayed them.  As for what they're doing there, they could just be a study for some kind of medical weakness or something. I just thought they were kinda cool, and I never really thought about what they were for...

Zenning

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Re: Theory, maybe an answer..
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2005, 02:13:58 am »
Quote from: Enker Of The Frost
Before the battle with Zeal, and quite a ways away, a Nu mentions something about this being a dream... I believe this can be interpreted as that since the six characters in question are not Enlightened in some way, shape, or form, they cannot fight Zeal in their natural bodies... They must fight her in their dreams, hence they appear to be sleeping right there...

What I'm getting at is that only the power of thinking one can do something, can achieve doing it. Not necessarily destroying the Mammon Machine, but battling Zeal and the Black Omen.

That's an interesting theory, but at what point would the characters have fallen asleep and slipped into the dream at?

What's more, who said that Crono & Co. can't fight Zeal with their natural bodies?

...

My own personal theory is that the six tubes, with what were either clones or holograms, was Lavos's way of telling Crono & Co., "I created you! I can destroy you!"

...

But yes, this room has always perplexed me at first sight, but I always right after forget about it when I face Zeal and Mammon.

AuraTwilight

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2005, 03:12:23 am »
yea, that room's a doozy. I have no idea what to think about it. Maybe Zeal was cloning them as a final test for them, but they got there too soon?

Zaperking

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2005, 04:28:16 am »
They're most likely projections of intruders.

Sir Frog

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2005, 04:39:15 am »
Perhaps the Black Omen is Norstein Bekkler's warehouse.

Lord J Esq

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Doppelgangers in the Black Omen
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2005, 06:26:35 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
They're most likely projections of intruders.

That's an awfully dismissive interpretation of some very heavy imagery. How do you figure?