5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)

[Mr Bekkler]

No Compendium article, it's got a thread in the Time/Space Analysis section. http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7666.0.html

[Acacia Sgt]

The big problem, is this 5-dimensional construct. Why has the Masamune already disappeared for Glenn in 600 in Crimson Echoes but not in Chrono Trigger? If King Zeal took the Masamune in -11995, it should have been impossible to retrieve it and use it to defeat Magus in Chrono Trigger, which led to the defeat of Lavos and set the stage for CE. (If, as is the case with the gates, these eras were proportionately "linked", this might make at least a little more sense.)

That's due to the nature of time. Just like how 2300 AD is still a wasteland even though by the end of the game you would have defeated Lavos, so do things don't happen until they actually happen. For King Zeal to steal the Masamune, he needs first to time travel there from the future, which in turns he needs to be revived by Belthasar, which in turns needs Chronopolis to do it, which in turns can only do it in the saved future which is only after Lavos has been defeated. So when Crono and co. fought Magus, it was in a time line where the above couldn't happen, so they were free to do it.

Now, another issue that can rise following this is how the events could happen AFTER the Masamune was removed, but that's a separate issue for now.

The only idea I have is that time functions as a loop and repeats itself indefinitely and every cycle permits a new version of events, evidently through the meddling of time-travelers. This fits in nicely with the scientific indications that the universe is curved and that time and space are parts of one and the same (therefore, time should also be curved). However, this only adds further complications to the idea of Time Traveler's Immunity and does not explain why the Glenn of CE is the one who returned to a Masamune-less world and not the one from the end of CT. Unfortunately, it seems more like a clumsy plot-device than anything else.

Regarding Glenn, I bring up again the Reptite arc example. The events Marle, Lucca, and Robo witnessed got erased when the Human time line got restored. The situation with Glenn above would be the same if you could never play the Reptite 1 AD and 2305 AG scenarios. Whatever they would do you don't get to see it because due to the structure of the game and/or plot, even though you know they did entered the Reptite time line but the game picks up again with the them who entered the restored time line.

Not to mention, you can't visit 605 AD until after King Zeal removes the Masamune, so that's another reason why it is the one who entered the Vanguard time line.

Fair enough. Yet this Glenn who had already seen a 600 A.D. with the Masamune has already vanished once, thereby becoming a Bastard of Time. This confirms that Glenn did indeed lose his Time Traveler's Immunity starting from the point of his return to 600 after the defeat of Lavos.

Not really, if he had lost it, we wouldn't have seen him in the Vanguard Time Line then. The TTI is only the entrance to the time line. Whatever happens to the individual in whatever time line it is entering is fair game, as it is only it's being entering the time line that is secured, whatever happens after is not.

[CelestialPhantasm]

Regarding Glenn, I bring up again the Reptite arc example. The events Marle, Lucca, and Robo witnessed got erased when the Human time line got restored. The situation with Glenn above would be the same if you could never play the Reptite 1 AD and 2305 AG scenarios. Whatever they would do you don't get to see it because due to the structure of the game and/or plot, even though you know they did entered the Reptite time line but the game picks up again with the them who entered the restored time line.

Not to mention, you can't visit 605 AD until after King Zeal removes the Masamune, so that's another reason why it is the one who entered the Vanguard time line.

The Marle, Lucca and Robo who experienced the Reptite-timeline were, after the intervention of Glenn, Crono and Magus, eliminated from existence.  They were banished to the Darkness Beyond Time and replaced by a Marle, a Lucca and a Robo who were sent by King Zeal into an unaltered time-line. The former ceases to exist and is replaced by the latter- this is the very essence of ,,Time Bastard". If you want to postulate that this is merely memory-wiping without any physical replacement, you may do so, but it would be an unfounded distinction with no change for the end result.

Not really, if he had lost it, we wouldn't have seen him in the Vanguard Time Line then. The TTI is only the entrance to the time line. Whatever happens to the individual in whatever time line it is entering is fair game, as it is only it's being entering the time line that is secured, whatever happens after is not.

You are only confirming my theory, for this means that he had TTI up to a certain point, the point at which he stopped time-traveling. Through his temporal travels, he secured his existence in 600 A.D. However, as he was not an active participant in the events precluding the disappearance of the Masamune, he was not spared by the change, and the original version of him, who arrived in 600 and continued to live until his death in a world where the memory of Cyrus and the Masamune were present, ceased to exist. Again, this is Time Bastardization. Those memories and experiences are never recovered for the current Glenn himself, as he, due to his renewed participation in temporal changes, has a new TTI and thus cannot lose his memories and experiences of the Masamune-less timeline.

The same principle applies to the reptite-timeline-incident. Those who continue to participate actively in timeline-changes retain an Immunity which stays current and corresponds to their actions. Those who cease to participate actively lose it starting at the point at which they ceased to do so. This is why Glenn, Crono and Magus, contrary to Marle, Lucca and Robo, still have their memory of the events in the Reptite Time-Line. They themselves were the Chrono Triggers in this incident and on the cutting edge of this 5th dimension.

[Vehek]

The former ceases to exist and is replaced by the latter- this is the very essence of ,,Time Bastard". If you want to postulate that this is merely memory-wiping without any physical replacement, you may do so, but it would be an unfounded distinction with no change for the end result.

This is not Time Bastard. Time Bastard is the removal of alt-timeline versions of time travelers when they reach the age at which their time travel occurred. Marle/Lucca/Robo were erased by regular timeline deletion.

You know, I'm not sure if this is a good explanation, but it might be better to think of TTI as an event applied to every time travel, not a status granted by time traveling.

[Acacia Sgt]

The Marle, Lucca and Robo who experienced the Reptite-timeline were, after the intervention of Glenn, Crono and Magus, eliminated from existence.  They were banished to the Darkness Beyond Time and replaced by a Marle, a Lucca and a Robo who were sent by King Zeal into an unaltered time-line. The former ceases to exist and is replaced by the latter- this is the very essence of ,,Time Bastard". If you want to postulate that this is merely memory-wiping without any physical replacement, you may do so, but it would be an unfounded distinction with no change for the end result.

You are only confirming my theory, for this means that he had TTI up to a certain point, the point at which he stopped time-traveling. Through his temporal travels, he secured his existence in 600 A.D. However, as he was not an active participant in the events precluding the disappearance of the Masamune, he was not spared by the change, and the original version of him, who arrived in 600 and continued to live until his death in a world where the memory of Cyrus and the Masamune were present, ceased to exist. Again, this is Time Bastardization. Those memories and experiences are never recovered for the current Glenn himself, as he, due to his renewed participation in temporal changes, has a new TTI and thus cannot lose his memories and experiences of the Masamune-less timeline.

The same principle applies to the reptite-timeline-incident. Those who continue to participate actively in timeline-changes retain an Immunity which stays current and corresponds to their actions. Those who cease to participate actively lose it starting at the point at which they ceased to do so. This is why Glenn, Crono and Magus, contrary to Marle, Lucca and Robo, still have their memory of the events in the Reptite Time-Line. They themselves were the Chrono Triggers in this incident and on the cutting edge of this 5th dimension.

You don't seem to understand. TTI is only the event of entering the time line at X point in time.

Look at it this way. Time follows it's natural course, it passes through 600 AD and Glenn enters thanks to TTI. Time still goes onward until 2305 AD, when King Zeal goes back in time and removes the Masamune. Now, starting from 11995 BC, a new time line has been created replacing the old one. Time now flows into this new one instead as the old one got sent to the DBT. Once it passes the 600 AD of this new time line, the same Glenn who entered the previous one will enter this one now, again, thanks to TTI.

The thing here is that the statement is 'Glenn enters the time line at X point'. Not, 'Glenn enters this time line or that time line at moment X'. Both cases is just the same individual entering the current time line. It's essentially like drawing a square in MS Paint, saving it when it's halfway done, that is, only two lines drawn, then you finish it. Then you quit the program without saving and open it again. And then you finish the square again.

In this analogy, the 2 lines drawn are Glenn as he is when entering the time line. The saving is the TTI. The drawing afterwards is what happens to him in the time line he is. And closing without saving and opening it again is the time line being changed, with the following drawing is what happens to him in the new time line. So you see, although both end results were squares, the last 2 lines drawn the first time aren't the last 2 lines drawn the second time. But in both cases the first 2 lines drawn are the same, regardless. What I mean is, it's the same individual just entering a different time line.

[CelestialPhantasm]

It is you who does not seem to understand that I do understand.

I have already agreed with you that Glenn's TTI allows him to return to 600 regardless of further changes to the timeline. However, his lack of time-traveling afterward means that his existence/memories after this return to the post-Lavos/pre-King Zeal timeline are NOT secured.

This is not Time Bastard. Time Bastard is the removal of alt-timeline versions of time travelers when they reach the age at which their time travel occurred. Marle/Lucca/Robo were erased by regular timeline deletion.

Ah, excuse me. I seem to have misused the term. However, Time Traveler's Immunity is nonetheless of relevance when one starts speaking about "regular timeline deletion"

If, at the beginning of CE, Glenn had traveled from 605 to 1005, met up with Chrono, Lucca and Marle, accompanied them to 2305 and then to -11,995 where the Masamune was taken- The Glenn in CE would be the one who had lived for 5 years in a timeline where the Masamune and Cyrus were still present in history, even though this past was then changed by King Zeal's actions. He would not have lost his memories of this time. After the disappearance of the Masamune, he would then return to a 605 A.D. to find a world in which he, upon his return in 600 A.D. had founded the Vanguard, but would have personally no memory of this, since the Glenn who did that would have become a Time Bastard in 605 A.D. at the point where Glenn left this timeline to meet Chrono, Lucca and Marle in the present.

Since, however, he missed this chance, he loses his Immunity to temporal changes and becomes changed with the timeline.

You know, I'm not sure if this is a good explanation, but it might be better to think of TTI as an event applied to every time travel, not a status granted by time traveling.

Exactly. Glenn was granted TTI at his arrival in 600 AD after the defeat of Lavos, and he would have been granted it again, had he traveled in 605 AD before the actions of King Zeal, as postulated above. As, however, he did not, he was not immune to said changes, as were Crono, Magus and Glenn himself later on during the Reptite Time-Line Event.

A further interesting question is: What happens when "regular timeline deletion" occurs? Is the person physically the same instance, and is therefore nothing sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Is it merely a memory-rearrangement executed by the timeline itself? (This would tend to support Bekkler's "Smart Time"-Theory)

[Acacia Sgt]

Wait, so your whole point of 'loosing TTI' was regarding to the memories and actions in the unaltered time line? Well then, why didn't you mentioned that in the first place? Since I already mentioned how the individual is only guaranteed the entrance to the time line and yet you kept going about loosing TTI and all that stuff. That caused the whole misconception.

[Mr Bekkler]

The way I see it, Frog should have kept his memories of being in the unchanged Middle Ages for 5 years, because of the precedent set with Doan in CT, it seems that the changes to the timelines don't necessarily occur immediately, rather sort of like a row of cars behind a red light, when it turns green they don't all start going forward, all wait while the first one starts to move, then the closest behind it, then the closest behind that one, and so on. It's like a ripple in a pond, to which the changes have already been compared in canon.

Rather than Back-To-The-Futuring it, the world should have changed around Frog in 605AD, like how the gates show up in the first place, bonded not to a fixed point, but at fixed relative locations from each other in each era.

The original Frog that was alive for five years in an unchanged Middle Ages who allegedly had TTI is not the same Frog who comes out at 600AD and lives through the changed Middle Ages. They have different experiences and memories. If nothing else that would have been a good opportunity to show the disappearance of a Time Bastard, perhaps, where the original Frog remained and the imposter altered event frog was expelled to the DBT before our eyes.

[Acacia Sgt]

But then why does Belthasar in Chrono Cross arrives in the saved future with no memory of what happened to him in the ruined future? Sure, he later learned stuff but that was after dwelling in the time-space research he did after.

Okay, sure, Chrono Cross is a whole different game, but it is still tied to Chrono Trigger and theoretically or not, the same rules should apply.

[Mr Bekkler]

Hmm. Well I had always just assumed ruined future Belthasar died because of the sad moment of de-powering the Nu, which ended his timeline.
Then the saved future Belthasar gets to live on past the death date.

But, that's still more complicated than it needs to be, to work, it just requires the ruined future version of him to be a TB, in other words, not the original. So he shows up in the "original" semiruined future, pre-Crono&Co, maybe dies maybe not, but then the future changes and Crono gets involved in the timeline, and we have the version of Belthasar that pops out of that timeline. Then he dies but it's ok cause Crono&Co actually save the future and the final version of him pops out, which is really the original being restored?

That's as good as I've got for now.

[CelestialPhantasm]

Wait, so your whole point of 'loosing TTI' was regarding to the memories and actions in the unaltered time line? Well then, why didn't you mentioned that in the first place? Since I already mentioned how the individual is only guaranteed the entrance to the time line and yet you kept going about loosing TTI and all that stuff. That caused the whole misconception.

I did say so. Look:

The only explanation I can think of, is that one loses Time Traveler's Immunity if one does not continue to actively participate in the events of the 5th dimension. Therefore, since Glenn was not present for the disappearance of the Masamune, he became, after his return to 600, a part of the timeline that was changed, and was changed with it. Therefore, he remembers there having always been a Kasmir since his return to 600, although this was not originally the case. He still has his Masamune and his memories of the way things were before 600, because these were relevant to his time-travels.

The way I see it, Frog should have kept his memories of being in the unchanged Middle Ages for 5 years, because of the precedent set with Doan in CT, it seems that the changes to the timelines don't necessarily occur immediately, rather sort of like a row of cars behind a red light, when it turns green they don't all start going forward, all wait while the first one starts to move, then the closest behind it, then the closest behind that one, and so on. It's like a ripple in a pond, to which the changes have already been compared in canon.

The two situations are not the same. Chrono Trigger maybe takes place within a week starting at the appearance of the gates. Therefore, let's say that about a week passed in each of the eras in which gates appeared. The Doan whom Crono and co. met in 2300 was encountered within this time. Lavos was also defeated within a "week" if we consider his appearance in 1999 (his presence within the timeline being less clear when one confronts him through the Black Omen). Therefore, if Time is, as you say, a ripple, and the changes should correspond to the relative placement within each era (as I also postulated in my first post), Doan should disappear at the point in 2300 which corresponds to the point in 1999 at which Crono and co. defeated Lavos.

Applying this logic, the change should have been immediate. In Glenn's case, 5 years have passed in all eras, so the situation is a bit different.

The original Frog that was alive for five years in an unchanged Middle Ages who allegedly had TTI is not the same Frog who comes out at 600AD and lives through the changed Middle Ages. They have different experiences and memories. If nothing else that would have been a good opportunity to show the disappearance of a Time Bastard, perhaps, where the original Frog remained and the imposter altered event frog was expelled to the DBT before our eyes.

this would only have made sense if Glenn had, as I proposed above, traveled through time from 605 to meet Crono, Lucca and Marle and been present for the removal of the Masamune. But then, we would have never met the Altered-World-Glenn. As it is done in CE. It is the original Glenn who vanishes and we are left with the new one.

But then why does Belthasar in Chrono Cross arrives in the saved future with no memory of what happened to him in the ruined future? Sure, he later learned stuff but that was after dwelling in the time-space research he did after.

Okay, sure, Chrono Cross is a whole different game, but it is still tied to Chrono Trigger and theoretically or not, the same rules should apply.

Belthasar's change is actually with the concept behind Glenn's change in CE. Since he did not time-travel after his arrival in 2300 A.D., he has no immunity to changes in the timeline.

This does, however, not explain the presence of Doan in the court of Guardia.

But, that's still more complicated than it needs to be, to work, it just requires the ruined future version of him to be a TB, in other words, not the original. So he shows up in the "original" semiruined future, pre-Crono&Co, maybe dies maybe not, but then the future changes and Crono gets involved in the timeline, and we have the version of Belthasar that pops out of that timeline. Then he dies but it's ok cause Crono&Co actually save the future and the final version of him pops out, which is really the original being restored?

Impossible. The timeline before the intervention of Crono & co. contains a ruined future (that is why they find it so). The future of the timeline after their intervention is clearly NOT the original, as it is not ruined.

[Mr Bekkler]

There's a semiruined future, that doesnt include the Ocean Palace incident in its history, then a superruined future, where they're all down with OP (yeah you know me:P ) then a saved future where they kill Lavos. That's all I meant, there are at least three "futures".

If it helps to reiterate, it goes:
1. No Crono&Co involvement (this one goes off without help)
2. Crono&Co involved but future not saved yet (this one IS the game)
3. Saved future timeline (the end)


Anyway, I think I'm done arguing about this stuff.

[CelestialPhantasm]

There's a semiruined future, that doesnt include the Ocean Palace incident in its history, then a superruined future, where they're all down with OP (yeah you know me:P ) then a saved future where they kill Lavos. That's all I meant, there are at least three "futures".

If it helps to reiterate, it goes:
1. No Crono&Co involvement (this one goes off without help)
2. Crono&Co involved but future not saved yet (this one IS the game)
3. Saved future timeline (the end)

OP? ... Opium?! 

Chrono & co.'s presence in -12000 doesn't seem to change much at all in 2300 except for the presence of the Black Omen.

Anyway, I think I'm done arguing about this stuff.

Thanks for stopping by. Now go forth, and complete Chrono Shift! I want an excellent story, and no Kefka-music! (I don't really expect you to listen to me on that last point)

[Mr Bekkler]

An excellent story you shall receive!

[ChronoMoogle]

Very interesting thread. For me it always was kind of strange why frog should change into the unaltered Glenn during CE.
Can someone explain why he should lose his time traveler immunity and if he does for whatever reason why he should still have memories of the past time travels?

Another thing which is hopefully not too offtopic. What about the lost time traveler immunity in Chrono Trigger? There was indeed only one scene like that, Marles disappearing in 600AD. What could have made her inimmune to the altered past?