So, are the bonus endings supposed to be semi-canon?

[Rocky]

I mean, I know they're not part of the true outcome of the game, but are they supposed to be be accurate portrayals of how the timeline really would have been affected by ending the journey at different times?

I only ask because, over at GameFAQs, there's a topic about how the Ayla vs. Azala rivalry played out originally, before Crono's involvement.  And the ending where all humans are now reptites was cited during an explanation.  The last post made a lot more sense than an earlier one that seemed really out there, so I'll refer to the last one.  He said that, originally, the rivalry wasn't escalated by the confrontation over Kino and the Gate Key, and then Lavos wiped out Azala and the reptites before any real war could take place.  But that, after the Gate Key incident, Crono had inadvertently created more friction, leading to the burning of Laruba and so forth.  That makes sense.  And so if you go and defeat Lavos without helping Ayla defeat Azala, the reptites win out, leading to the ending.

But that leaves me skeptical.  I mean, no matter how much or little Crono altered things, Lavos would've crashed all the same.  How could the reptite ending be possible then, even with Crono's partial involvement.  Did it cause Azala to away from home leading an attack when Lavos smashed the lair?

To be honest, I never really thought any of the endings were meant to be taken all that seriously.  I know there's one with Frog going to fight Magus, and Magus (as the Prophet) doing his thing in Zeal - realistic possibilities.  But Frog marrying Leene?  Tata venturing through Magus's castle, and running into Crono, Marle, and Lucca laughing maniacally, appearing to be bad for some reason?  Though funny, those events don't make much sense in terms of realism, no matter when you fight Lavos.  And I always considered the reptite ending to be along those same lines.

But I'm asking the question in the topic title because I guess I don't really know if I've been mistaken, and those endings CAN be used when trying to analyze the series.  I knew this was the place to ask.  Thanks in advance.

[Satoh]

You didn't see the obvious affair-fodder between Glen and Leene? I caught onto it the first time I played the game... and it wasn't until a year later that I realized she was technically married already because the King is alive.

Also I'd forgotten there was an ending like that... I'd attributed it, all these years, to myself inferring things.

You've already given me something to think about. As for the reptite ending... I doubt it was intended to be canonical as such, but I wouldn't count it out of the realm of possibility.

Obviously if you count General Kid's ending in Cross, you can see it's kind of nonsensical, and not the true events that took place, however, it is still a logical possibility.

Lets think about this though, if Magus dies, and Glen becomes human again, does that mean that Glen has been sapping magic from Magus this entire time? If cutting Magus off from the spell nullifies it, then he must be maintaining it somehow.

Does magic also span time infinitely? The endings are all full of holes and possible fillings... What are some of the ones you find particularly of interest, aside from the Reptite ending?

[Mr Bekkler]

I don't think Frog married Leene in that ending. I think it is implied that the two of them had an affair and cuckolded the King.

[Rocky]

Well, the ending did indeed imply a wedding - because it showed it.  "Marle goes to the castle, where King Guardia XXXIII notes that he found an old wedding reel. As Marle is horrified, it depicts Frog marrying Queen Leene." (Quote from the Endings section on this very site.  There's a picture of it, too.)

Regardless, I really don't think any sort of affair did or ever would have happened.  They were very close friends, and for a long time.  But I really don't think that's enough to actually assume any impropriety.  If it was, then we could also assume Schala and Melchior (or Schala and Belthasar: see Belthasar's fixated ramblings in 2300) may have had an affair - they were also extremely close.  And a large age difference pales in comparison to a partially different species difference.  I just really don't think that's what the real events of the game were leading us to believe.  If there's any in-game text that begs to differ, do cite it.  To me, all of their words were words that any close friends would say - nothing that could be enough to assume more, I don't think.

Regarding Magus, you're referring to the fact that after defeating him (if you do), Glenn remains in frog form until after the game ends, and THEN transforms?  And so why the delay?  That's a great point, and one that really doesn't make sense.  But if I were to guess (and this really is just my guess), I think we're just looking at a game mechanic thing.  As in, it was easier for them to program the rest of the game with the same character sprite, and all his movements in and out of battle.  (Similar to how the Zelda creators just mirrored everything in Twilight Princess when creating a Wii version from the GC version, to accommodate the Wii Remote for a righty, rather than reprogramming every scene with Link.)  So maybe the Chrono creators just said, "Eh, let's just make it a delayed thing, and he only reverts back to a human after Lavos is gone or something."  Game makers often take the easier way out.  Just a possibility.

Besides that, I think the scenario where Magus lives is, I don't know, more canonical than him dying and Glenn changing back.  Even though it's the player's choice, I think the Chrono world is generally spoken of as having him live.

As for which endings I had in mind in terms of events that seemed more amusing than realistic... It's really just the 3 I already mentioned - one where Crono, Marle, and Lucca have become villains in Magus's castle, one where everybody's a frog-human hybrid, and one where everyone's a reptite.  As for the last two (similar in nature), I really think they did it more to be funny, and less to paint a plausible outcome.  After all, the Glenn & Leene ending takes place if you beat Lavos after saving Leene and returning home, but before the trial.  Why?  Why would that eliminate the king from 600 from the picture, and lead to the new wedding, while beating Lavos a little bit later - still before any further interaction with the year 600 - DOESN'T make those changes.

I just can't take the endings as any more than fun little stories, some that could make sense and some that really couldn't - I don't see them as plausible alterations that could be canonical.  But I'm still open to hearing more - I realize I may be wrong.

[Lennis]

Well, all of this is in the context of canon, which immediately presents problems and limitations.  I think the purpose of the alternate endings (some of them) is to expound possibilities that were only hinted at in the main narrative, or might have been part of the game but left on the editing room floor for creative or technical reasons.

Consider Glenn and Leene.  It is clear that they are close.  It is also clear that Glenn, having a noble heart, would never condone an affair with the Queen regardless of his feelings.  Why did Glenn leave the Queen's service?  The dialogue suggests that he disgraced her in some way.  Perhaps he came to the realization that his feelings for Leene were beginning to overwhelm his honor, and that the only way to stop himself from committing a sin of the heart was to remove himself from temptation.  Another (I think more likely) way to look at it is that Leene was the one who was struggling with temptation, and that Glenn left her service to protect her honor and virtue.  This last would paint Glenn in a much more positive light, and leave no doubt as to his knightly virtue.  But the vagueness of canon forces us to not accept a definitive answer for Glenn's behavior in that context.  Another reason we should break ourselves free of that straightjacket and tell the real story with unapologetic fervor.

[tripehound]

If one factors in the theory of multiversing; in that all things that can happen, do happen, each in their own unique universe; it can be argued that all of the endings are canon. Who is to say that there isn't a universe in which Tata works up the courage to journey into Magus' lair, and runs into Crono & Co. along the way? Or that Leene gets the hots for an amphibian? 

Looking at it from beyond the fourth wall, though, it's clearly just game developers having some fun. I mean, seriously, The Dream Project? Good Night? We're not going to start debating the canonical nature of those, are we? 

[Rocky]

Man, people seem really convinced of romantic feelings between those two, even though the game never actually gives much, if anything, to support that - no more than with Schala and Melchior or Belthasar, anyway.  Here's the only dialogue used when Glenn takes his leave:

Frog: I failed to protect Queen Leene.  I hath disgraced thee.
Leene: Frog!

And as you run into him on the way out:

Frog: 'Twas a fault of mine, which endangered the Queen.  I shall depart for good.

The only thing he even mentions as his cause for leaving is the queen's safety.

I understand that many people get a lot out of fan fictions, and that's fine.  But it's sounding to me like some fanfics are more responsible for these Glenn/Leene rumors than the game itself.  If the game had even ONE flirtatious remark, then their relationship could be up for speculation.  In reality, though (unless I'm forgetting something), the game itself contains no dialogue regarding them that's any more intimate than any other close friends in the game.  I'm just amazed that this hidden romance is believed by so many.  The only thing to legitimately support it is that ending - so I guess it depends on if the ending is meant to be taken seriously or just a joke (same as the reptite ending).  I happen to think they did that ending, not for the sake of Glenn and Leene's relationship per se, but just to use a human/amphibian union to cause a funny frog noise when everyone talks.  (I may be wrong, but that seems more reasonable to me.)  Basically what you said, tripehound - the developers having fun.

Let's face it, Chrono Trigger is an extremely simplistic game, while Cross is far more mature.  That's why so many love Chrono Cross, and why I love Trigger.  I far prefer simplicity.  It just really seems like they made CT that way, not with love scandals in mind, like with Dario, Riddel, and Karsh.  Either way is fine - I'm just saying that Trigger was clearly one way, and these rumors don't really fit in with that way.  Especially based on so little, on non-existent dialogue.

So I guess that's all I'm saying:  The obvious answer is usually the correct one.  These speculations would fit right in with Chrono Cross.  They don't with Trigger.  Not impossible, just not likely.  Not a big deal, really.

[Lennis]

Man, people seem really convinced of romantic feelings between those two, even though the game never actually gives much, if anything, to support that - no more than with Schala and Melchior or Belthasar, anyway.  Here's the only dialogue used when Glenn takes his leave:

Frog: I failed to protect Queen Leene.  I hath disgraced thee.
Leene: Frog!

And as you run into him on the way out:

Frog: 'Twas a fault of mine, which endangered the Queen.  I shall depart for good.

The only thing he even mentions as his cause for leaving is the queen's safety.

I think at issue is why Glenn failed to protect Leene.  It is never definitively stated, but what if Leene was endangered as a direct result of him leaving her service because of the growing feelings between them?  Glenn leaves Royal service, Yakra kidnaps Leene, Glenn hears about it and vows to rescue her, Glenn leaves again - for good - once Leene is safe.  I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch, but I don't believe it actually violates canon.  (And if it does, it's still a darn good idea.)

[Vehek]

Itatics are mine.

Frog: The Queen was exposed to
danger because I was near...

It was my presence here that endangered
the Queen.

Does that really sound like he was absent?

[Lennis]

I've never played the DS version, and what I've read of the script doesn't incline me to rush out and buy it.  I prefer the more colorful Woolsey translation.

If we're considering DS Chrono Trigger to be the true canon, then I should probably excuse myself from this discussion.

[Mr Bekkler]

I prefer the more colorful Woolsey translation.

Hear, hear! So do I! It has a lot more life and creativity, somehow. The DS translation isn't bad, but like the Star Wars Special Editions, for every "error" that's "fixed" there's some charm lost (Frog's dialect) or a change made purely for the sake of change, (item and enemy names). Some things are the same for the sake of being the same, (Flea, Ozzie, and Slash's names).

Personally I think it has to do with the 30 day time limit Woolsey was given. It is restriction that breeds creativity, I cannot stress this enough.


I recall as a youngster, I thought about the multiverse theory with the extra endings. However, they cannot be more than suggestions of what might have happened, since the only way to attain those endings is with New Game + and there is no logical in-game reason to go back to the beginning and do it all over again (ie no gate waiting for Crono after Lavos is destroyed to take him back to his morning wake-up routine the day the Fair opened).

[Rocky]

As a matter of fact, I prefer the original English script too.  Just feels more natural, I don't know.

Well, you're right of course, that could have been a possible chain of events (dealing with the SNES script).  But based on what actually happens and is said in-game, there's not really anything that logically leads to such a stretch.  So if you do, then you could go off in any direction, like saying that Crono and Lucca dated each other prior to the events of the game.  Could be, but the game doesn't even hint at it.  And I don't think the game even hinted at Gleen & Leene, either (again, other than that ending - which, as I said, I'd guess was there just for a funny frog-people scenario).  If ideas like that abound in fanfics, that's all well and good.  But within the game's existing story...I just don't see it.

This, I believe, is what the story tried to convey, by my best perception:  We know how distraught Glenn was over Cyrus's death - it consumed him.  I really, really think that the relationship between him and Leene is that he is endlessly self-deprecating, never forgiving himself, and Leene feels tremendous pity for him.  Most likely, it was such a depressing spell that left him vacant (remember where he stays - constantly - all during the quest to get the Masamune, during another bout of depression), which made it easier for Leene to be abducted.  Which made him feel further guilt over that, causing more self-loathing.

That's how it strongly felt to me.  Glenn was in a constant downward spiral of guilt (until he bonded with his time-traveling friends), and Leene felt so bad for him, and tried to build his self-esteem with kind words.  I really think that was the intended meaning, because it's the most simple and is supported by the dialogue we see.

If you prefer to perceive things differently, it's really no big deal.  I was just amazed that so many believed the Glenn and Leene thing, because - after playing through the game more times than I can count - I honestly never got that vibe, not even once.  We all see things differently, of course.

[Lennis]

This, I believe, is what the story tried to convey, by my best perception:  We know how distraught Glenn was over Cyrus's death - it consumed him.  I really, really think that the relationship between him and Leene is that he is endlessly self-deprecating, never forgiving himself, and Leene feels tremendous pity for him.  Most likely, it was such a depressing spell that left him vacant (remember where he stays - constantly - all during the quest to get the Masamune, during another bout of depression), which made it easier for Leene to be abducted.  Which made him feel further guilt over that, causing more self-loathing.

Indeed, that is a possibility.  But I have to wonder if Glenn would have immediately returned to Royal service after being cursed by Magus.  He would have been filled with crushing shame and remorse after that event.  More than likely he would have crawled into his hole to live in exile.  But Glenn came to serve Queen Leene at some point after that.  Why?  It's never brought up in canon, but I think Leene somehow comes to meet Glenn in exile and takes great pity on him.  Glenn is moved by her compassion and vows to serve her.  And so the seeds of love are sown.  This scenario is the most compelling to me because Glenn is made to look too weak otherwise.  It is his duty to Leene that keeps him sane, and when he leaves her service he has little left to live for and so he crawls back into his hole.  It takes the reforged Masamune to convince him he still has a duty to perform.

[Rocky]

But Glenn came to serve Queen Leene at some point after that.  Why?  It's never brought up in canon, but I think...

Actually, it is brought up in canon:

 GLENN: C, Cyrus!

 CYRUS: R...run...Glenn...

   The Queen.
   Take care...of...Leene...

   .........

Glenn felt compelled, and was even ordered (or begged, I suppose) to return and take care of her.  By his best friend.  Through his dying wish.  Now, Glenn already cared about the queen - as did Cyrus - but this entreaty from Cyrus would have driven him to rise above his self-loathing, his desire to retreat, for the sake of his friend, in addition to the standard sense of duty.

But let's pretend that dialogue wasn't there, and go back to your scenario for a moment:

Leene somehow comes to meet Glenn in exile and takes great pity on him.  Glenn is moved by her compassion and vows to serve her. | And so the seeds of love are sown.

The "|" is where some link seems to be missing, to me.  What you described up to that point sounds like a form of loyalty, like a deep friendship.  The kind that exists between Schala and Janus, between Glenn and Cyrus, between Schala and Melchior, between Robo and Lucca.  I actually happen to think that the loyal love of a true friendship is the strongest there is, because it has no ulterior motives.

But regardless, the game script does contain the explanation for Glenn's immediate return, even in his humiliating frog form.  And overall, the script contains much to support the shame/pity relationship (and the deep affection of friendship, like the other duos mentioned above), and not really anything to suggest romantic feelings.  Just according to the in-game dialogue.

This scenario is the most compelling to me because Glenn is made to look too weak otherwise.

I honestly don't see Glenn's actions and feelings over Cyrus to be weak at all.  Not weak, but in deep pain.  If you had a best friend, and he had been for your entire life, since childhood, and then he was taken from you - while he was trying to protect you... That's one soul-crushing blow - how do you know it wouldn't break you, shake you to the core?  This is what I imagine it felt like to Glenn.

Truth is, I see something akin to that in pretty much all CT main characters.  Lucca was traumatized by her mother's accident (it drove all her future scientific efforts); and the townspeople view her as a scientific joke, always failing - an outsider.  Marle is extremely lonely - a passionate and adventurous soul, trapped within walls of royalty, with no one else like her in her life; viewed as a spoiled brat, when she really isn't.  Robo has nothing - no place in the world, abandoned by his kind, not even human.  Ayla is strong, to be sure.  But she, too, is an outsider.  Because she feels it's up to her to fight every battle for her people, she's alone it her mentality - no one else shares that burden.  Magus was stranded in the middle ages as a boy, after losing his closest human bond.  He was all alone physically and emotionally.

That was their life before the game started.  A group of very flawed, very solitary, very independent people - who came together and became complete, vindicated, and co-dependent.  And just...friends.  That's what I love about the story.  The world's outcasts, from every era, but put them together and they become true heroes, even happy.  It reminds me of the characters from "Lost" and the kids in Dragon Army in the book "Ender's Game," in that respect.

Anyway, I don't see Glenn as weak - only broken, until he is put back together.

[Lennis]

Actually, it is brought up in canon:

 GLENN: C, Cyrus!

 CYRUS: R...run...Glenn...

   The Queen.
   Take care...of...Leene...

Gosh!  I had completely forgotten about that!  But unless I've missed something about the game's timeline, there's a serious problem.  I believe Glenn was transformed about 10 years before Crono and Lucca meet him.  Marle, who is about 16, is mistaken for Leene, which means that Leene is around the same age.  Certainly no older than 20.  That would make Leene a child at the time of the Magus incident.  Would she really be the Queen at that time?  I was of the impression that King Guardia XXI was the direct descendent of the line.  If Leene is the actual ruler then this line would make sense, but we are given no indication that that is the case.

To clarify my earlier point, I don't think there is open love between Glenn and Leene at any point during or before the events of Chrono Trigger.  It's something that simmers under the surface due to their intimate friendship - a "pure" love with the potential to grow into something else.  I think that's what Glenn sees and couldn't let continue.  (This isn't the same as Crono and Lucca's relationship, which is more sibling-like.)