Author Topic: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis  (Read 10577 times)

Lennis

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2012, 05:22:40 am »
So, what if Lucca didn't time travel? Would their era be changed nontheless?

A good question.  It brings up the poem from Chrono Cross: "What was the start of all this?  When the cogs of fate begin to turn?  Perhaps it is impossible to grasp that answer now, From deep within the flow of time..."

If Marle was the root cause of history being changed, and everyone from her timeline would disappear if Leene was not rescued, then Marle would never exist to go back in time to muck up the middle-ages in the first place, effectively negating the change Marle caused.  But in order for Marle not to exist, Leene would have to die, which would not have happened had Marle not been mistaken for her, meaning that Marle would have to exist for Leene to die, thus resulting in Marle's disappearance from history, which is causally impossible.  This is a temporal paradox that really has no resolution except for Crono and Lucca to save Queen Leene's life and make the issue moot.  This is actually an important hint to what's really going on.  It might be the Entity's doing, but perhaps not in the way you expect.  We all look at time as a straight line.  What if it's something completely different?

utunnels

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2012, 06:30:43 am »
Quote
This is a temporal paradox that really has no resolution except for Crono and Lucca to save Queen Leene's life and make the issue moot.... We all look at time as a straight line.  What if it's something completely different?
Well if that is true, then there are several other situations in which they would have messed up things. A direct example is Ayla, who is an ancestor of all the humans in 1000 AD (consider the ridiculously long time span), if they simple take her from 120...0 BC, the history is highly likely be changed.

That is why many feel Marle's paradox is special.


Edit*
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So the Entity warns they in that special way (TTI is just a theory, which even a genius like Lucca can't be too sure about it at that time).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:33:53 am by utunnels »

IHBP

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2012, 09:48:38 pm »
I think the confusion results from the idea that Marle was rescued at the precise moment that Leene was supposed to have been.

But if you imagine that Leene was not supposed to have been rescued till the moment Marle disapears then you can assume its that precise moment that time was altered by Marle to jeopordize her own existence a clause obviously not covered by the TTI act

xcalibur

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 07:36:13 pm »
Clearly it is a paradox, since it contradicts Time Travelers Immunity. What should have happened was: Marle ends up in 600ad and the search for Leene is called off. You meet her then, and go back to 1000 ad to find that things got really screwed up - let's say Guardia is ruined. The team figures out that they have to go back and save Leene to restore the present.
This would've been consistent with the rest of the game, and been a very nice prologue to saving the ruined future.

My theory is that the Marle Paradox was a developer oversight. Multiple people worked on CT, and they had different visions. In particular, it really seems like the first part of the game was storyboarded before the rest.

utunnels

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 09:11:09 pm »
It sounds like TTI was not their standard while developing. It is a time travel game anyway, not any sort of hard sf. It reminds me of Back to the Future, in which the protagonist finds himself fading away form his family photo because his mother falls in love with him instead of his father.

idioticidioms

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2013, 11:46:54 pm »
Actually, all parts of the game, except for one, point to the fact that each major decision creates an alternate universe based on the choices made and the most possible of outcomes, which was the pre-concept for Chrono Cross.

They tried to make it look as if it was direct effect and that you could change the events of time to change the future of the world, but that's not what resulted from it, as shown in Chrono Cross. The team thinks that's the case, but then the team in CC is shown differently. That may not have been intended until after CT, which would make the point moot, but I'd like to think that they did think of that back then.

If we assume that they did, then it leads to the subtle insinuation that there is a very powerful 'entity' that pulls people strings like puppets and changes things as it sees fit to avoid certain cataclysmic events. This IS hinted at in the original CT, which lends credit to the idea. If this is the case, then events like Marle disappearing in 600 AD as direct co-relation to Leene's disappearance would absolutely be attributed to this 'entity', as it would not occur with alternate timelines.

Let's move over to FF8's time disruption for a moment. It also deals with alternate realities based on decisions and possible outcomes, though you don't see too much of that in the game. They deal with one linear timeline that loops into itself, cutting all involved off from outside interference, as evidence when *spoiler* Squall goes back in time to the Orphanage and gives Edea the idea for Garden and SeeD, which raised a very important question: Who actually came up with these ideas?

straight answer: we don't know, but we think that somebody outside of the loop had to have done so at some point to be able to initiate the loop. That's if we assume that time is linear and that there is a definitive starting point to time at some point in the history of the cosmos, which is quite a stretch, if you ask me. You have Edea starting Garden and SeeD with Cid and their first students are the kids from the orphanage, those that weren't adopted. Those kids are raised knowing absolutely nothing about the Sorceress or the future threat that comes from them. They learn all of this on their quest to liberate Timber.

But, if we assume that time is not linear, then the whole loop has to be viewed as a whole. It meanders a bit, some times going in a straight line, some times doubling back on itself, some times traveling sideways. Our minds are what give linear viewability to what we intake, to make sense of things.

Let's further think of 'time' as an advanced code. First thing you do when you create a code is troubleshoot; you look for bugs, etc., but you fine tune until you come the closest you can to perfection. You beta test, you alpha test, you throw free products out to people until you can finally code it near enough to perfection to be indecipherable from perfection except to those with keen sensibility. Would we then assume that our very cosmos in its seeming perfection is allowed to have such bugs as 'paradox' in it? Would we then assume that there's not several various levels to the world like some MMO's have various layers for their players when one layer gets over-crowded, or to allow for multiple parties to go through the same motions at the same time in their own ways and methods without interfering with each other?

My point is this: with time not being linear and with multiple layers of it, there is an endless amount of alternate dimensions that are all existing alongside each other and top of each other and in and through each other, allowing for time travel and allowing for things that would cause paradox, but not allowing them to actually cause paradox. Of course, there is always the idea that what happens through time travel was always meant to happen and thus the future is changed already to suit it and anything we do by going to the past would already have been done and we're just performing to what was already done.

But, back to Marle, we have to assume that the CT crew utilized the Alternate Timeline Theory, allowing for multiple dimensions to overlap each other and to exist simultaneously; due to the storyline continued in CC. We further have to assume that an entity is at work far beyond the scope of Lavos and our heroes as evidence in both CT and CC; and that they meant to give us the illusion that we were changing the present and future in CT instead of just forging a new path altogether. We can assume these things by the elements in the game and their misleading natures.

What this means is that they can do anything they want with the heroes of these games and still bring them back for a sequel.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 11:50:48 pm by idioticidioms »