Author Topic: Chrono Relics  (Read 11609 times)

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012, 02:22:05 am »
I've already started applying it to Chapter 4. Hopefully the quality improves by each chapter. Speaking of, do you have anything to say for Chapter 3?

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And you're just going in to high school?

Heh. I don't mean to, but I always seem older on the internet. And yep. I'm going to be a freshman in high school, 15 on September 30. (I think on Minecraft someone thought I was at least 17. Goes to show...)
Edit: Why hello new page!

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 02:26:55 am »
I guess I was surprised since your grammar and spelling seem to be on point. Not done collecting thoughts on chapter three yet. I'll sleep on it and post tomorrow morning bright and early when I get to class. (I'm 26 and have about a week and a half left til I graduate college - stay in school! ...or else you just have to go back later haha)

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 03:01:54 am »
Well, Chapter 4 is about half way done. I have to go to a public barbeque tomorrow, so it may have to wait until Monday.

On a better note, I actually majorly updated Chapter 1! More setting detail, tweaked dialogue, yada yada. (Sadly, still rather short) Feel free to mention possible improvement.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/1/Chrono_Relics
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 03:07:07 am by Grace Ashtear »

Lennis

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 07:19:28 am »
I have three concerns with what I have read.

The first is that you're posting your work on (ugh) FanFiction.net .  You have clearly developing talents, and I think they are wasted on that horrific medium.  It is a place for bad writers to hang out, not good ones.  They don't even let you make proper paragraphs for christsakes!  Try putting your work in PDF format, as much for yourself as for your readers.  You'll get a better sense of how your prose reads if it were in a real book.  That helps more than you might think.

My next concern is the premise of your story.  You establish things very quickly from the villain's perspective and reveal a substantial portion of their plans and motives right off.  That's really not good policy if you want to maintain an element of mystery, discovery, or surprise, which is rather important in any novelistic endeavor.  Another foundational problem is your plot device of "Lets use the heroes to get (x) of something because we (presumably) cannot get them ourselves."  This plot has been used so many times, particularly in video games, that I cringe every time I see it pop up.  I want to take Lucca's Wondershot and riddle it with blaster bolts.

My third concern is how you portray the battle of chapter 3 playing out toward the end.  Seriously, is this the same team that vaped Lavos in Chrono Trigger?  They don't seem to do all that well against these small-fry.  But more important than that is how you have enemy reinforcements pop up out of nowhere to give the villain an easy win while the heroes just look on helplessly.  If the enemy has the power to do that, why do they need Lucca and company to fetch relics?  This plot device has also been done to death in video games.  You need to ask yourself if you're playing a video game or writing a story.  I understand the need to give the player things to do in a game by making them fetch (x) of something to accomplish (y).  Is that an interesting way to approach a story?  I mean, we can already see how things will play out.  The heroes collect the relics, the enemy gets what they want, the heroes engage in a titanic battle to stop the now-stronger villain and somehow win where they couldn't before, and life goes on.  Am I missing anything?

I don't mean to seem overly negative with these points, Grace.  A lot of young writers fall into these traps.  But it's best you become aware of them early so you don't start developing bad habits.  Stories are very hard to fix if you have a bad foundation.  Take this from someone who knows.

More positively, your descriptive prose is very good, especially considering your age.  I'm envious.  If I had your level of talent at age 15, I'd be a much better writer today - and I don't consider myself a slouch in that department.  The best advice I can give you is to expand your horizons and envision narrative situations that can turn into single-spaced chapters of ten pages or more.  To do that, it is best to keep character front and center and not feel pressured to rush the plot.  After all, who cares about plot if the characters aren't interesting?


To give you a little bit of direct help, I noticed a line of dialogue from Glenn in chapter 3 that could do with some revision.

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"She possesses thine traits as her mother, yet she carries much determination."
  Translated from Shakespearean English, this line makes little sense.  Just using the word "thine" does not a proper medieval sentence make.  (For future reference, the word "thine" is only used preceding a word with a vowel sound.)  Try replacing it with this:

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"She possess the traits of her mother, determination being the most fully passed, though the others be hardly lacking."
  Read this way, your earlier description of Glenn's medieval dialect being less prevalent in his speech is more clearly demonstrated, but he still does not speak in a contemporary fashion.

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 02:00:26 pm »
Glenn Speech: Replaced Glenn's line. It's pretty clear I'm a noob at Old English.
ff.net PDFs: I don't know how to make PDFs and post them to the internet. Otherwise I would do that specifically for you guys (and myself if you insist). Plus, I don't know how I would be able to make possible updates to chapters.
Info Dumping: And, gah. That whole information dump thing gets me still. I need to think of a way to stretch it out a little more.
Overused Plots: Oh dear, I didn't know how overused that concept was. I can do my best to play it out in a unique way, though I don't think that will be saying much.
Underpowered Heroes: I was afraid of that. The point though is if you had to fight thousands of those cronies, wouldn't even great heroes tire out?
I punched out Cthulhu and now I don't know what to do!: First: That was years ago, and naturally they are out of practice. Second, well, they had swords pressed to their children's throats. I honestly wouldn't know what to do in that case even if I did have magic.
Poof! Minions!: I need to rephrase that. they were mainly supposed to be coming from up the cliff or possibly from the roof.

I realize these sound like I'm defending myself (and that I go on TV Tropes too much), but honestly I feel really shaky about all my writing now. My worst fear is that I will have to start the whole thing over or possibly cancel it. I will do my best to fix it up, but hopefully it won't change the concept of the story.
I'm going to be unavailable for about 8 hours, so hopefully I will hear something in that time.
P.S. Am I the only one who is getting a bunch of 503 errors? It's making things take much longer and annoying.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 02:05:40 pm by Grace Ashtear »

Lennis

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 06:58:17 pm »
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P.S. Am I the only one who is getting a bunch of 503 errors? It's making things take much longer and annoying.

I've been noticing that, too.  Ramsus is supposed to be doing some maintenance today, so hopefully the issue will be corrected.

For my writing, I use a program called OpenOffice.  It has an option to export a word document directly as a PDF.  PDF is a document/picture format used by Adobe Acrobat Reader, I believe.  A lot of computers come with Adobe software pre-installed, so you may not have to download anything.  And unless I'm mistaken, OpenOffice is freeware.

I have to say, though, that PDF's aren't a great choice if you're always updating your chapters, at least as far as posting them is concerned.  PDFs are really intended for final presentations rather than drafts.  Still, the more professional look they give a manuscript actually help with editing.  Mistakes tend to stand out more in that format, I've noticed.

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Overused Plots: Oh dear, I didn't know how overused that concept was. I can do my best to play it out in a unique way, though I don't think that will be saying much.

Yeah, the plots I've mentioned have been used since before you were born, sadly.  Western games have been breaking out of that mold in recent years, but Japanese game stories have been slower to change.  It's still possible to turn old conventions on their ears by presenting them in different ways, but that is really hard to do.

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Glenn Speech: Replaced Glenn's line. It's pretty clear I'm a noob at Old English.

I'm not all that experienced at it either.  My version of Glenn isn't a true representation of old English, but more of a hodgepodge of different dialects from the past.  I could always make it more accurate, but that would require extensive study in Shakespeare, and certain lines would not read very smoothly in true Shakespearean.  I suggest you study Shakespeare with more diligence than I did in school.  It can only help you.

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...honestly I feel really shaky about all my writing now. My worst fear is that I will have to start the whole thing over or possibly cancel it.

You don't need to feel shaky about your skills.  The talent is there.  You just need a more solid grasp of story structure.  That will come with time.  And you really haven't written enough material to worry about starting over.  There's no law that says you have to keep it all or scrap it all.  If you like a certain description, or sequence of dialogue, copy and paste it to a notepad and label it.  You might be able to use it in a way you didn't first intend as your story takes shape.  I've written entire scenes in an initial draft that ended up looking very different in a more finalized version, but bits and pieces of the original draft still made it in.  Don't feel pressured to rush through.  Find out what you most like about your story idea and enshrine it in your mind.  Let things develop naturally.  Is your story about the villain?  Or is it about the world and its history?  Or is it about one of the heroes?  Pick one and build on that.  Personally, I would pick one or two of the heroes and run with it.  Do you want a coming-of-age story about young heroes trying to live up to the legacy of their parents?  Or do you want a story about aging heroes trying to adjust to new realities and a possible decline of the skills that made them heroes?  Both are valid ideas, but the first has been done far more often than the second.  (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan is an excellent example of the aging heroes type.)  I don't know the full scope of your idea, but you could take a really bold direction and make it about Lucca.  You could take her amulet curse and internalize it.  Is her will fully subsumed, or is she hiding a piece of her soul in a forgotten corner of her mind to use against her enemies at a key moment?  Does she decline quickly or slowly?  No matter which direction you choose, develop the characters some before charging full ahead with the plot.  Don't be afraid to think big.  You're not writing an essay with a word limit, after all.

Hope I wasn't rambling there.  :oops:

 

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 07:00:31 pm »
The 503 Errors were server issues, they used to pop up from time to time but Ramsus was working on fixing it so it should be ok now.

While I agree with Lennis on a few counts, namely that ff.net isn't ideal for formatting, and that the basic plot is rather cliche, I have to disagree with the assumption that a cliche is a bad thing. Considering your source story is Chrono Trigger, which is the motherload of cliches wrapped into one package, I'd say if you came up with something entirely original it would feel out of place in this "world". The real trick is how you handle them and how you make them new, fresh, and surprising. I find that cliches are a good way to set up audience expectations, like how Lennis came to this conclusion out of what was written so far:
The heroes collect the relics, the enemy gets what they want, the heroes engage in a titanic battle to stop the now-stronger villain and somehow win where they couldn't before, and life goes on.

It is easy to see how it looks like it's unfolding. So right when your reader thinks he/she knows what's about to happen, you can throw them a curve-ball (also called a revelation or a twist) to have exactly the opposite happen.
For example: What if the badguys told the main characters their plan and accidentally let it slip that the only way they could be defeated is with these relics, then when the goodguys collect the relics, the badguys could reveal that it wasn't accidental, they intentionally used reverse psychology to get the goodguys to bring the relics to them so it would make them more powerful?
Another example: What if the badguys posed as goodguys, and got the Chrono team to work for them, since they have a similar goal (destroying Lavos) that can be exploited by holding back information?


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More positively, your descriptive prose is very good, especially considering your age.  I'm envious.  If I had your level of talent at age 15, I'd be a much better writer today - and I don't consider myself a slouch in that department.  The best advice I can give you is to expand your horizons and envision narrative situations that can turn into single-spaced chapters of ten pages or more.  To do that, it is best to keep character front and center and not feel pressured to rush the plot.  After all, who cares about plot if the characters aren't interesting?

An idea that works with this sentiment would be to take Chapter 1 and re-write it completely, but start even farther back. Show how the characters find out about Lavos, show why they want to destroy it, where the relics came from, how Talzar comes up with his plan, etc. It could focus on Talzar entirely and have no dialogue and just go over his actions. Maybe he goes into an old mountain or a hard-to-reach cave and finds ruins or artifacts or an old library or something and the audience learns what's going on as he does. There's plenty of ideas if you're willing to explore them.

I think you have ideas that will work just fine, you just need to expand and show what's going on in your writing rather than have a character tell the audience. Don't be afraid of going back and re-doing something. If you did it once, you can do it again, it's something I learned in art school. Art (including music and writing) is ever-changing, and is never truly finished, only abandoned. The only reason anybody ever says "this is finished" is because they had a deadline or they got sick of looking for things to fix. Don't let yourself get sick of it and you'll keep improving.

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 07:27:02 pm »
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For my writing, I use a program called OpenOffice.
Well, go figure! That just happens to be the program I'm using. I'll look at that now...

While I agree with Lennis on a few counts, namely that ff.net isn't ideal for formatting, and that the basic plot is rather cliche, I have to disagree with the assumption that a cliche is a bad thing. Considering your source story is Chrono Trigger, which is the motherload of cliches wrapped into one package, I'd say if you came up with something entirely original it would feel out of place in this "world". The real trick is how you handle them and how you make them new, fresh, and surprising. I find that cliches are a good way to set up audience expectations,
I have absolutely nothing to say about this except that I agree to the point. Cliche won't necessarily be a bad thing as long as it's not boring. I already have an idea for a major plot twist, but I will wait until I get there.

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An idea that works with this sentiment would be to take Chapter 1 and re-write it completely, but start even farther back.
Ya know, I was just considering that today. I think I will rewrite it completely and fix the info dumping. As for starting back further, I can't really do that. Mainly, how Talzar and Serpedes know about the whole Heroes of Time and Lavos is a major spoiler if I said their origins. I can tell you though it's something we are familiar with...

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 09:07:39 pm »
I really wouldn't advise posting your work as PDF. PDFs are meant to be printed out, not read on-screen, and most people don't bother to print out fanfic before reading it. Also, they tend to be big, bloated files. Clean, hand-coded HTML is a better format for on-line posting (ff.net, however, couldn't produce a clean document if someone whacked them over the head with the instructions).

(I'm going to break off there, because I've scared people away before with my critiques of their fiction, and I don't want to do it again.)

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 09:21:52 pm »
Well now I don't know what to do about making it a PDF. Also, you've made me curious about your critiques, but then again I'm not sure if I would be scared off...  :?

I am fond of the first two paragraphs of my story, so I still kept them in. However, I rewrote the rest, so now I'd like to hear responses. It's longer than the previous, but still somewhat short.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/1/Chrono_Relics

Edit: After waiting for the 503 to disappear for forever (in which I actually fired up CT and beat Lavos again in that time) I can finally post that Chapter 4 is up! I feel like I put more effort into it, so hopefully that shows. Now with 50% more length!
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/4/Chrono_Relics

A few concerns I have: In which possibly...
The curse is a little too much like a *certain* game.
I didn't write Kid's dialogue in character (I've never played Cross and I am going by the Chrono Wiki for her personality
I accidentally revealed something about plot or characters I shouldn't have (you might know what I mean when you read it)

Okay, it's midnight here, so I'm going to get some sleep. Leave comments like usual and good night!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 04:08:17 am by Grace Ashtear »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2012, 02:17:49 am »
I just checked this out on a whim cause I haven't heard anything in a while and saw that you edited your last post instead of making a new post for Chapter four. Just so you know, I generally check new stuff by clicking those two links up top (unread posts and new replies) and when you edit a post that was already there, the new edit doesn't show up in those links (I think that's what most people on here are accustomed to, but I don't know how familiar everyone is with it).

So basically I just found out Chapter four exists today, lol, sorry. I need a break from schoolwork for a moment so I'll give you some opinion stuff in a little bit.

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2012, 03:59:26 am »
Just in the nick of time Bekkler! I was about to post this:

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I don't know the rules on double posting, but oh well here I go.
Damn, nearly five days of silence? Where did you all go? I even slacked a lot on Chapter 5.
Speaking of, here it is!
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/5/Chrono_Relics
Hope it isn't too filler-like. It mostly looks into the pasts of the character and their feelings. Now, bad excuses time!
My brother let me play his unplayed copy of Pokemon Diamond, which I tend to play pokemon games for hours on end for a few days. I was mostly stuck on that and burned some midnight oil to write bits of the chapter, which my thoughts tended to flow better at that time, strangely enough. So here yo go, enjoy.
Now, the matter at hand.
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saw that you edited your last post instead of making a new post for Chapter four. Just so you know, I generally check new stuff by clicking those two links up top (unread posts and new replies) and when you edit a post that was already there, the new edit doesn't show up in those links
Mostly, I would have thought if you saw the redone Chapter 1, you would have posted. So I edited that post, assuming no one saw it yet.I almost suspected that came up, but ah well. You and I are here now and that's what matters.
So, sorry for the confusion and hope to hear feedback. Cheerio!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 04:01:44 am by Grace Ashtear »

skylark

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2012, 12:23:10 pm »
5 days? Phhht. That's nothing. Try a full week. Two weeks. A month, even.

Sometimes people have too much on their plate to post a reply, even if it's something as simple as 'good job'. Doesn't mean they don't read it, though.

Of course, I get why it's frustrating not to get comments. Since I restarted my Sea of Dreams project, I've only had two replies to the first post, then nothing. Hell, I've even modified the Trophy List to contain the trophies that should be hidden just to foster in some discussion.

Then again, aside from actually starting the first part of the script, I haven't really done anything yet to warrant any discussion.

My point is, don't get discouraged if you get a dry spell on comments or reviews.

And if anybody has the nerve to send you flames, use them to heat your stove. :P

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2012, 01:27:24 pm »
I've been working on a fan game (link in my signature) for over two years now and haven't gotten any feedback at all because nobody's played it (because it's still in production/feedback from the demo doesn't count). It's got my heart and soul in it and only one other Compendium member has been working on the script with me (it's Boo!), he's literally the only other person who knows all the twists and the intent for the story, motivation of the characters and everything, and he and I came up with a lot of it together. We haven't released anything or given out our secrets or outlines or character charts or stat sheets or item lists or anything that's been written (though we will collect it all in a sort of Players' Guide/Ultimania/DevBible when we release the game), nor have we really released many graphics from the game (a lot of those I used in the demo were temporary prototypes and there are a LOT of new graphics) or any of the music (it's a custom soundtrack, in fact 100% of it is so brand new that it has never been heard outside the team).

And it's all for one reason (and a web of smaller, related reasons). We know what we're making, we know how big it is, and we know how we need to deliver it so as not to ruin any of the secrets and twists and crazy conclusions we came to. Here's the kicker though: I'm doing it for myself. I don't care if half the fan base hates the game when it's done. I'll love it, I know at least my team has faith in me and confidence in our stuff, enough that we're all working on it without getting any kind of money at all.

I've been in a band about the same length of time. We have about two albums' worth of all original material. We play shows and practice a lot and I write all the foundation music and the lyrics. I get little to no credit for that, even from my own bandmates, and that's the way it's always been. I'm busy most of the time, I'm involved in a lot of projects, but those are my big two, and until I graduate school(my number one priority) everything else is on hiatus. Even though I might get more praise for some things, the bachelors degree, the band and the game are what are important to me. They're what I want to look back at when I'm older and be able to say "Damn, I actually accomplished a lot". It's not for the praise, or even for the criticism. I know that I can do it, so I won't stop until I've done it.

In short, I don't always agree with Skylark, but when I do, it's when he gives thoughtful comments like that. Five days isn't long. High school will end and when you get out nobody will care about it and life goes on (AND it just gets better as you get older! ...so far.).  Sorry if this is all too off-topic. I'll keep myself on track next time, I promise.

I did scan through chapter 4, though I was confused when Kid showed up and how easy it was for Lucca to get out of the prison considering how formidable the foes were just a second ago at her home. Also bringing Kid into the picture makes me question some stuff. When is this supposed to take place? Before or after Chrono Cross? In an alternate or regular timeline? I'll have to re-read a bit, and might as well go back to chapter 1 since you changed a lot apparently. More soon, including things I liked. :P

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2012, 02:37:13 pm »
Hm... Alright. I had a bit of a feeling that five days wasn't that much. I guess I'm one of those people who likes encouragement to keep going. It's especially important for this, since this is going to be the biggest work I've ever done, fan or not. Since I get what you both are saying, I will also keep going, because I love how this story will turn out with all the plot twists and whatnot.
Maybe it was too confusing, but the beginning paragraphs of the story indirectly said that this is after Cross. As for the time line thing, who really knows what canonical would be after the events of Cross? Also, pertaining to the beginning paragraphs, my theory is that countless time lines exist for countless universes. This story is looking at one of these time lines for the Chronoverse. I'm kind of putting ideas here that I call deep, but then again, let the reader interpret as they want.