Author Topic: Chrono Relics  (Read 11619 times)

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2012, 04:11:48 pm »
Awesome! Just make sure your passion is what drives you and you can't go wrong!

I hadn't gotten that it is directly after Cross, I had interpreted it to be one of several possible timelines as a sort of alternative to the events of Cross. So this is your take on the merged timeline after Cross, then?

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2012, 05:19:22 pm »
That's exactly it. I couldn't say it any better myself.
Hm, I haven't even started chapter 6 yet. I've had minor versions of writer's block all throughout writing. Sometimes I'm bored of it, other times I'm filled with ideas. I hope I can hear from you about chapters 4 and 5 until then. Hopefully, it will be up in three days. This also may be the last time for the relatively fast updates, since school starts on the 4th for me.
First, good bye party for my friend. Then, work on Chapter 6. *PSI Farewell*

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 06:08:33 am »
Okay, I have some feedback for the whole thing and I'll start at the beginning. Generally, what it keeps coming back to is I'd like to see more (in the earlier chapters).
Specifically, I have some ideas for what to elaborate on in each chapter.

In Chapter 1 Talzar has a book, but where did he get it? Again, I'd like to see this journey in my mind, maybe he went to great lengths to please his leader as a last-ditch effort to save his own life? Maybe there isn't even dialogue and we're just following and seeing his actions, Indiana-Jones-style? He crosses a rickety bridge and climbs a mountain and kills a big snake and burns some cobwebs and solves a puzzle and finally gets his hands on this guarded text with all the answers he needs, a real victory for him. Something like this would allow us to get to know Talzar a bit and doesn't spoil anything with Serpedes.

In Chapter 2 I like that Cassander's father forces him to take sword-fighting lessons, but I don't like that he just says so. Again, the chapter could easily open with him in a lesson, perhaps bored with his instructor, and after besting him with a clever trick, he makes his escape from the castle where the current story resumes. Again, it would delve into his character a bit before seeing his interactions. Alternatively, you could show a day in Talia's life prior to everything going crazy, with her waking up to the shouts of a bunch of kids in the orphanage, having to step over toys and trinkets and inventions and interact with robots and things in the house, and eventually she leaves and spots Cassander and again, the story resumes. Either way it would help establish that one of these characters is the main protagonist with whom we'll be spending the majority of our time in the story. (Hint: if you started with one of them waking up, you can use the "FirstName. FirstName! Good morning, FirstName." template set by the two games for a nice thematic tie-in.)
Some parts of the conversation felt rather expository and gave away too much information that the characters wouldn't really talk about. Most of it was rather natural, though, and the two are believable friends and somewhat interesting characters. If I were you, though, I'd add some kind of unfulfilled love element between the two and/or some kind of personality quirks for each that can be seen as a negative trait, to keep them from being "perfect little mary sue" type of characters. Maybe Talia is embarrassed by her mother and feels inadequate mentally because she can't match up to Lucca's genius, and maybe Cassander has horrible stage freight and prefers to go unnoticed, and as such he feels unworthy of being the future king. I mean, they both have a lot to live up to, and their lives, though at peace, probably aren't always easy. That should be acknowledged somehow in a way that can be overcome in a character arc.

In Chapter 3 mere soldiers overwhelm the legacy characters, as previously mentioned. However, in Chapter 1 Serpedes' soldiers seemed to be ghosts or lost souls or something like that, perhaps their ghastly qualities could be emphasized more? Perhaps you could describe them materializing like a solid coming from air and skipping the liquid phase. If they are undead that brings a relatively useful "unkillable" enemy to the playing field that could believably take on said heroes, but make sure to give them a weakness or you have enemies that you have to deal with in the story later that are still unkillable.
Also, Lucca seems to have a lot of precognitive knowledge of her own imminent doom and that's not really explained. I'd like to know what gave her the idea that "it's all happening again" etc.

In Chapter 4 I still don't get why Kid can just waltz in, or why she's really there(from a storytelling perspective). I don't mind her being there but why didn't Talia mention her earlier? Why not use Talia instead? Where is Talia? The question is asked, so the answer had better be good when we find out, for the sake of the story. I don't mind what's actually happening, I just have questions that could be answered here.

Chapter 5 is pretty awesome, I like that Serge and Kid are together, it's a well done flashback and fills some holes nicely. I also like that the narrative splits and gets creative, and finally, I am enjoying the new, longer length with the most recent addition.

These are mostly just ideas and questions to help you, though I admit I may have rambled a bit and gotten commenty, as I was re-reading while typing to make sure I was all caught up. Hope some of it helps! Keep writing.

One last thing, you could always set up a Google Doc version, where it's all in one document and you just post the link and let others view but not edit it. That way you could format it however you wanted rather easily without the problems of ff.net and even include a table of contents as the first page that linked to the chapters, or whatever you want to do with it. Just a suggestion for a free alternative method of storing and sharing stuff without having to actually download anything new.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 06:13:11 am by Mr Bekkler »

Lennis

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2012, 09:48:49 pm »
One last thing, you could always set up a Google Doc version, where it's all in one document and you just post the link and let others view but not edit it. That way you could format it however you wanted rather easily without the problems of ff.net and even include a table of contents as the first page that linked to the chapters, or whatever you want to do with it. Just a suggestion for a free alternative method of storing and sharing stuff without having to actually download anything new.

How do you set up something like that?  That might sound like a stupid thing to ask, but I really don't know much about computer programs aside from games.  I'm looking for a way to get my own material into a format that people will actually read.  No one seems inclined to download my PDF's anymore.  I know they're big files, but...

More to the point of this thread (Grace's story), I would like to add that writing this story solely for fans of Chrono Trigger is a way to dig yourself into narrative traps that are hard to extricate yourself from.  If you write this story for people who are completely unfamiliar with the universe, you are more likely to build a more solid narrative foundation for your tale.  In other words, write it for everybody.  Chrono Trigger fans won't find that tiresome if it's approached the right way.  The #1 rule to keep in mind here is "show, not tell".  No one likes to see the dreaded WoT (wall of text) to explain what happened in this world years earlier if it's not in context to what's happening in the moment, and then only in easily digestible chunks.  On that, I use the 1/4 rule: if an explanation for something that happened outside of the moment runs longer than 1/4 of a page (single spaced), you should consider revising the passage and mention only the most relevant data -  saving what's left to be explained at some future point in the chapter, or in a later chapter if the subject should come up again.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2012, 11:12:41 pm »
This video explains the basics really well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMqdex3KDQM


Or here's a quick tutorial by me (in a new thread so as not to fill up this one with off-topicness):
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9889.0.html
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 11:44:06 pm by Mr Bekkler »

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2012, 04:26:02 am »
Alright, both of you I will reply to by sections.
Mr Bekkler
Alright, responses to your comments, possibly some going to be "I'm going to fix that sometime later"

Chapter 1: Possibly I failed at implied meanings, but it's just a history book. Those shouldn't be anything "rare" or "sacred" and can be found in whatever schools or stores, and it wouldn't be an interesting read to hear about a villain going to the supermarket.
More about it: They have been studying the story in that book about Crono Co.'s adventures and some of Cross, which is partly where they know it. The other part? That's about that "major spoiler" I was talking about. I already did some foreshadowing at the end of Chapter 4, hopefully it was done at least decently.

Chapter 2: I see your point with a lot of this. Maybe I will add some intro to how Talia and Cassander got out. Then again, we never saw any cut scene of Marle escaping the castle to literally bump into her fate. But yeah, I'm going to fix that sometime la- *shot*
Also, may you provide some examples where you say it is too expository?

Chapter 3: Trapped soul soldiers aren't really something new. The fact that they are in numbers of thousands is what adds to the element of the heroes being overwhelmed, let alone that they have 20 year rusty skills. I didn't add them being able to materialize places for 1: They are trapped in fake bodies and being able to do that would imply a way to escape if possible. and 2: A previous comment by Lennis who said they "seem to come out of nowhere" and made the enemy seem to have powers they actually don't have.
Lucca's precognition, remember that Crono and Marle also had that feeling. It comes from the magic they possess (said explicitly by Talia in Chapter 2, I believe). It is a very vague sense of warning. To compare, in Star Wars Episode IV, where after Alderaan got blown up, Obi-wan felt it as, approximate quote, "It feels like millions of voices just cried out in terror." it's a vague statement, but you know it's not something good.

Chapter 4: I don't know where I could put Talia mentioning Kid. The other part I feel is not necessary to reply to.

Chapter 5: By me reading this, I assume you wrote each review as you read the chapters, so Kid appearing in the story has hopefully been answered. The chapter mostly felt like filler because it was to fill in holes that I left in the story (though I think some can be left purposefully for interpretation by readers, much like in Trigger about Crono's dad.)

Lennis
The post that I started this thread with said I have written stories before, but it was just fanfiction I am new to. So, I am already used to introducing a new universe to unfamiliar readers. If you are more suggesting hat I change the story to such a thing, then that's a whole different bottle of tonic.

Additional Notes
I've been extra busy this week. This is also been accompanied by some writer's block, leading to the fact I am horribly slacking on Chapter 6. I don't even have the first page done, for the love of Schala! I am going to be free for the whole day until this Tuesday, where I will officially start high school and naturally, be hard pressed for time. I am considering posting what I have so far to this topic in a quote, so tell me if you think I should.
Now, let's see how many days this topic will lay dead before someone brings it back to life.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2012, 03:48:17 am »
Chapter 1: Possibly I failed at implied meanings, but it's just a history book. Those shouldn't be anything "rare" or "sacred" and can be found in whatever schools or stores, and it wouldn't be an interesting read to hear about a villain going to the supermarket.
More about it: They have been studying the story in that book about Crono Co.'s adventures and some of Cross, which is partly where they know it. The other part? That's about that "major spoiler" I was talking about. I already did some foreshadowing at the end of Chapter 4, hopefully it was done at least decently.
I didn't get that implication in the text. Okay so the book's not a big deal, then why is it the centerpiece of the chapter? If the book is a common history book, and the common history of the Chrono planet includes the CT and CC "Heroes of Time" stories, why is Talzar using it at all? Shouldn't Serpedes know all this information Talzar is telling him? I feel like saying that the book is common and can be found anywhere is kind of an excuse for not writing (or at least thinking) more.

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Chapter 2: I see your point with a lot of this. Maybe I will add some intro to how Talia and Cassander got out. Then again, we never saw any cut scene of Marle escaping the castle to literally bump into her fate.
No, but we did see Crono waking up, which is why I suggested you pick one of the two to be the "main" character and show them waking up to mimic the beginning of the game, then quickly switch to show how that character's life is quite different than what we've seen before, and finally segue into the two friends meeting as you currently have it.


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Also, may you provide some examples where you say it is too expository?

The bold parts:

-She decided to begin with, "My mom. I don't know why, but she seems to be more... distant each day. Not even dad knows what it is. It seems all I hear her say is 'It's going to happen all over again. There's no way it can. It will be soon, but we're not ready.' Even Cyrus is catching on."

-"Only bits and pieces. About two days ago, I was walking through the corridors when I heard them in the throne room. I managed to listen in behind the thrones. Mom said that she had a feeling that the peace here in Guardia wasn't going to last. It was the same feeling when they were on their adventures. She even mentioned it felt like they were targeting one of them. In fact, it was to the point where she mentioned the feeling when they were in Zeal Kingdom..." Cassander's words began to slow down."And, when the Queen was able to awaken Lavos... And when... when dad..."

-After he said that, he realized how much he really did want to have an adventure like his parents did. Thank God that dad ordered I get sword fighting lessons, I might actually get to use them now!" He was in the middle of his happy thoughts until he was abruptly pulled out. Talia was holding her head before she doubled over where she was sitting.

Consider these instead:

-She decided to begin with, "My mom. I don't know why, but she seems to be more... distant each day. Even Cyrus is catching on."

-"Only bits and pieces. About two days ago, I was walking through the corridors when I heard them in the throne room. I managed to listen in behind the thrones. Mom said that she had a feeling that the peace wasn't going to last. In fact, it was to the point where she mentioned Lavos... And when... when dad..."

-After he said that, he realized how much he really did want to have an adventure like his parents did. He was in the middle of his happy thoughts until he was abruptly pulled out by a distant shriek. Talia grabbed at her head and lost her balance where she was sitting.

Quote
Chapter 3: Trapped soul soldiers aren't really something new. The fact that they are in numbers of thousands is what adds to the element of the heroes being overwhelmed, let alone that they have 20 year rusty skills. I didn't add them being able to materialize places for 1: They are trapped in fake bodies and being able to do that would imply a way to escape if possible. and 2: A previous comment by Lennis who said they "seem to come out of nowhere" and made the enemy seem to have powers they actually don't have.
So are they undead or regular or what? What does trapped soul mean? If they aren't coming out of nowhere and they're regular soldiers how is it that nobody sees them coming?

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Lucca's precognition, remember that Crono and Marle also had that feeling. It comes from the magic they possess (said explicitly by Talia in Chapter 2, I believe). It is a very vague sense of warning. To compare, in Star Wars Episode IV, where after Alderaan got blown up, Obi-wan felt it as, approximate quote, "It feels like millions of voices just cried out in terror." it's a vague statement, but you know it's not something good.
The problem with that is that's exactly like Magus' Black Wind. So I'd recommend having them just call it that, and have a character mention that it's a developing thing, "just like Janus".

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Chapter 4: ...The other part I feel is not necessary to reply to.
If you're not interested in replying in full or changing what you've written, then why ask for critique and feedback? Sorry for playing devil's advocate, not sorry for the long post.

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2012, 04:29:51 pm »
I feel like saying that the book is common and can be found anywhere is kind of an excuse for not writing (or at least thinking) more.
Err... I don't really know now. I try to think about those kinds of things, but I'm not sure what I could use to revise that.


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Consider these instead:
Hm... I'll look over them, do any edits I find to fit, and put them in soon.
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So are they undead or regular or what? What does trapped soul mean? If they aren't coming out of nowhere and they're regular soldiers how is it that nobody sees them coming?
Wow, I think I am being a little too vague with these kinds of things. Trapped soul soldiers, like I have here, are souls that have been brought out of rest by dark spells and forced back into mortal bodies to serve the one who cast such spells. I can already see how this will lead to other "underpowered" questions.
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The problem with that is that's exactly like Magus' Black Wind. So I'd recommend having them just call it that, and have a character mention that it's a developing thing, "just like Janus".
Didn't think of it that way. I'll do that sometime.
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If you're not interested in replying in full or changing what you've written, then why ask for critique and feedback? Sorry for playing devil's advocate, not sorry for the long post.
Oohhh... *tugs shirt collar* This was really bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was that the other part was answered in the Chapter 5 response. And I do want to change parts of this story, like I already have (hence completely remade Chapter 1) I just am distracted by other things, the s-word that you all will get mad at me if i say it again, and something I sure hope is just writer's block. That, being I have wavering interest in continuing this story. To reassure, it wasn't anything you said; it's just me. Also, no worries, I like long posts. ;)

Also, I would still like to hear about the Chapter 6 preview thing. I'm currently experimenting with Cyrus's personality and I am not exactly satisfied with it. I just kind of want some advice on it before I make a whole chapter with it. Furthermore, I want to apologize if it seems like I don't care much about this whole thing. Truth is, I do and I take all advice really seriously, but it's something I can't really put into text on a topic post. I'm really sorry for any indifference...  :(

Lennis

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2012, 05:24:36 pm »
Lennis
The post that I started this thread with said I have written stories before, but it was just fanfiction I am new to. So, I am already used to introducing a new universe to unfamiliar readers. If you are more suggesting hat I change the story to such a thing, then that's a whole different bottle of tonic.

I am suggesting you make that change.  It's a mistake to think you can skimp on foundational issues just because you are writing for a specific audience.  Most writers of fan-fiction do just that, and I don't think it is therefore coincidental that most fan-fiction is crap.  The difference between good fiction and good fan-fiction is... nothing.  They both have the same rules for narrative excellence.  A manuscript is either good or it isn't.  Any credible teacher of creative writing would say as much.

If you are already experienced at introducing new universes, then you are already several legs up on 99% of the other writers in your age group.  Why limit yourself just because it's fan fiction?  Show everyone what you're really made of and humiliate your competition.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2012, 07:31:32 pm »
I feel like saying that the book is common and can be found anywhere is kind of an excuse for not writing (or at least thinking) more.
Err... I don't really know now. I try to think about those kinds of things, but I'm not sure what I could use to revise that.
If you don't want an elaborate backstory for how rare the book is and how it came to be and how it's secretly one of the Relics or something, then you could easily just have Serpedes say something like "Oh yes, it's so obvious! Lucca! Of course!" or "How could it have slipped my mind, Lucca, the inventor was one of the Heroes of Time! Talzar, this is why you're the chief scholar! You take care of the details while I plan the big picture." Or something like that to acknowledge that it's supposed to be common information. That's a quick fix. I'm not trying to write your story for you, but I do encourage you to cover as many little plot holes as possible. And there really aren't that many, all things considered, so don't get downtrodden.

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Wow, I think I am being a little too vague with these kinds of things. Trapped soul soldiers, like I have here, are souls that have been brought out of rest by dark spells and forced back into mortal bodies to serve the one who cast such spells. I can already see how this will lead to other "underpowered" questions.
So they're like not-immortal zombies? That doesn't lead to many other questions, it actually answers them quite well. You should put the description you have here into the actual story, it would be quite helpful, and it's pretty cool. Crono&Co haven't faced zombies before, not exactly, anyway. They've faced Mystics and walking skeletons but reanimated bodies are new to them, so the challenge is more believable. Maybe they don't know the enemies can be taken down, and the horde overtakes them slowly. I would recommend that the enemy tells the heroes that they're reanimated and follow only him, and he could even lie and say they're immortal to intimidate the good guys.


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Oohhh... *tugs shirt collar* This was really bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was that the other part was answered in the Chapter 5 response. And I do want to change parts of this story, like I already have (hence completely remade Chapter 1) I just am distracted by other things, the s-word that you all will get mad at me if i say it again, and something I sure hope is just writer's block. That, being I have wavering interest in continuing this story. To reassure, it wasn't anything you said; it's just me. Also, no worries, I like long posts. ;)

Also, I would still like to hear about the Chapter 6 preview thing. I'm currently experimenting with Cyrus's personality and I am not exactly satisfied with it. I just kind of want some advice on it before I make a whole chapter with it. Furthermore, I want to apologize if it seems like I don't care much about this whole thing. Truth is, I do and I take all advice really seriously, but it's something I can't really put into text on a topic post. I'm really sorry for any indifference...  :(
Just don't say you're quitting. Keep working even if it's slow, and even if you have to just write something you don't like to move on and get to something you enjoy writing. You can always rewrite but you can't get there until it's written. When it's done, it's done. Best advice I got. And where can the Chapter 6 preview thing be found?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:38:03 pm by Mr Bekkler »

Grace Ashtear

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Re: Chrono Relics
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2012, 10:44:02 pm »
And where can the Chapter 6 preview thing be found?
Right here.
A few notes:
I think I said before, but Cyrus's personality is experimental. It is very subject to change.
This takes place the morning after Chapter 5.
I am genarlly the least satisfied with this chapter at the moment with the direction it is going. This is where the advice comes in.
It cuts off very abruptly because this is what I have typed up so far.
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   Ever since that angst-filled evening, where after Talia was knocked unconscious and she woke up in her own bed, she seemed to do nothing but lock herself in her room with her books or walk out to town. Since Lucca's disappearance, everyone at the orphanage was usually too depressed to eat much. Glenn seemed to be the worst, who would stay in his room practicing sword skills more than ever, and would talk about nothing but setting off soon to avenge his wife.
    In spite of the gloom that veiled the orphanage, Talia grabbed some money and was walking over to the market with her younger brother Cyrus. The crown of his head came up to her shoulder. In that respect, he was almost like a shorter copy of his father. He had his tousled green hair, the golden eyes, and quite a strong build. The only things you could see from his mother was his face had a more gentle look to it and he was quite smart, though he preferred the art of broadswords. He also needed to wear glasses, but avoided it whenever possible. Because of the recent events, neither of his parents were scolding him for not wearing them. In all truth, he missed it.
   The walk to the market was mostly silent. It wasn't until the moderately sized building was on the horizon that someone spoke up. It was Cyrus. “Talia, you've been a little weird, even more weird than lately. Is something up?”
Talia sighed. “Not really. It's just... I have to go with dad.”
Cyrus frowned at this statement. “What? What do you mean, 'go with him'? You don't actually mean, leave, do you?”
It was Talia's turn to frown, though for a different reason. “Just think about it Cyrus. I told you what happened when you were at Marron and Kells's house. We can't just lay around doing nothing while mom is in the hands of some psychopath sorcerer. Do you want her dead... again? She's already died once in an alternate time line, you know. And this time, she has dad, the current Guardian rulers, and us at stake. We need to fight back with whatever strength we have left. This time, however, we can be by our parents for whatever this is.”
Indeed, Cyrus had to think about it.  He always enjoyed the use of his father's swords, along with the occasional hammer, but also yearned for a time to use them for real. This time, he would fight for his mother. Apart from that, knowing her technological contributions to the kingdom was more than enough of a reason to find her.
To wrap it all up, he replied quietly and gradually grew louder. “Yeah, you're right. We need to fight back. Maybe we can get King Crono to send troops. For once, I regret visiting Kells's house. Isn't his dad Fritz, that Crono saved from the guillotine? To think that Crono went from being on the execution block to king...”
Talia looked up and was grateful for a reason to interrupt her brother's characteristic rambling. “Hey, we're here!” Cyrus looked up at her words, and certainly enough, they were in front of the market that he was forced to walk to. Naturally, he didn't mind too much since it was run by Fritz.