April 4, 2016 - Denfa Minico Kazuhiko Torishima Interview

General Information[edit]

https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/projectbook/torishima/2
https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/projectbook/torishima/3

Japanese[edit]

『クロノ・トリガー』は鳥山明のイラストから作った

――その後、ジャンプは『ドラクエ』だけじゃなくて『FF』とも組んでいきましたよね。

鳥嶋氏：

最初に坂口博信（※）と会ったのは『FFIII』のときだったかな。

Vジャンプを立ち上げようとしていた時期に、後に『遊☆戯☆王』の初代カードプロデューサーになる下村聡さん（※※）という人が紹介してくれたんだよ。当時、『FF』は若い人の間で人気になりだしていたけど、全く付き合いがなかったからね。

※坂口博信

1962年生まれ。「ファイナルファンタジー」シリーズを手がけたゲームクリエイターとして知られるが、脚本家・映画監督としても活躍。2001年にゲーム制作会社のミストウォーカーを立ち上げ、現在は同社の代表取締役社長を務める。

※※下村 聡

2011年に“世界で最も販売枚数の多いトレーディングカードゲーム”としてギネス・ワールド・レコーズ社に認定された『遊☆戯☆王』の初代カードプロデューサー。作中に登場するシモン・ムーランというキャラクターの名前は下村氏が由来となっている。

ただ、そのときに坂口が「『FFⅣ』をジャンプで特集してくれ」と持ってきたのは、申し訳ないけど見送ることにした。

僕らのゲームページの方針というのは、単にゲームを見せるというものじゃなかったからね。最初からちゃんと組んで、編集部がキッチリとモノを言える体制にする代わりに誌面に大きく出す。そうしてマーチャンダイジング的な展開まで組んで、大きな流れにしていく。ジャンプでやるからには、そうでないといけないと思っていたんです

――ただ、以前に坂口博信さんにインタビューしたとき、断られるついでに鳥嶋さんにもの凄いダメ出しを食らったと聞いて……（笑）。

鳥嶋氏：

ああ、あったね（笑）。

やっぱり、『FF』はあまりにバランスが悪いんだよ。ドラマは魅力的なのに、ダンジョンが妙に難しかったり、台詞がどうしようもなくクドかったり、とにかく独りよがりな部分が多くて「惜しいなあ」と思っていたんだね。

だから、僕は坂口がやってくるなり初対面で、いかに『FF』がダメかという話を滔々としたの。

――いきなり会議室に呼ばれるなり「敵役に魅力がない」なんて説教されて、坂口さんは「奮起した」と言ってました。

鳥嶋氏：

僕があとで聞いたら、「ものすごく腹が立った」と言ってたけどね（笑）。「呼ばれたから来てみたら、いきなり文句を言われて、何だそりゃ！？」って。

ただ、僕としてはそのくらい坂口と『FF』を語りたかったんです。なぜなら、本気で『FF』を『ドラクエ』と並び立つもう一本にしたかったから。そうなればゲーム業界がどれだけ活性化することか。考えただけでも、ワクワクするじゃない。

――ライバルの存在こそが盛り上げていく。まさにジャンプの発想ですね。

鳥嶋氏：

業界を盛り上げる上で、ライバルの存在というのは重要なんですよ。で、ついでに『FF』もジャンプが扱うようになるわけ（笑）。

佐藤氏：

それにしても、その二つがいまや合併しちゃってるんだよねえ。

鳥嶋氏：

あれは今のゲーム業界をつまらなくした元凶の一つでしょう。やっぱりスクウェアとエニックスは合併するべきではなかったと僕は思ってますね。

――その後、坂口さんとの関係はどうなったのですか？

鳥嶋氏：

不思議なことに気がつけば週一回、飲みに行くようになったんだよ。しかも、坂口の方から誘ってきていたと思う。

佐藤氏：

カチンと来ていたのに（笑）。

――坂口さん、さすがですね。

鳥嶋氏：

いやあ、アイツ、単にMなんじゃないの（笑）？

その後も坂口が『FFⅣ』をジャンプ編集部にプレゼンしに来たら、編集部の連中に「何だ、『ドラクエ』じゃないのか」と立ち去られたという“事件”があって、坂口は深く傷ついていたからね（笑）。結局、『FFIV』もジャンプ誌面では取り上げなかったな。

――ひどい（笑）。

鳥嶋氏：

ただ、『Ⅴ』からは『ドラクエ』のようにタイアップで始めてみたんですよ。

ところが……全くウケないんだね。やっぱり、『ドラクエ』は鳥山さんの絵があるから、それだけでキャッチーだったんですよ。

――まさに、鳥山さんを絡ませた判断は大当たりだったという話だと思いますが、でも当時のFFって、いまも語り継がれる天野喜孝さんの絵だったわけですよね。

鳥嶋氏：

でも、ジャンプではウケなかった。結果『FFV』の売上は前作の2.5倍になったんだけど、最初誌面での人気はもうボロボロ。それで、坂口と話して「このままじゃダメだね」となったの。

そこで僕たちはゲームに映画のスチールの考え方を持ち込んだんだよ。

要するに、始まったばかりで何も出来ていないものを中途半端に見せても仕方ないじゃない。だから、いきなりキービジュアルを作りこんでしまうわけ。「このシーンはこうだ！」というビジュアルを先に見せた上で、後からゲームを作り込んでいく。これが現在に至るゲームの記事の出し方の始まりですよ。

――なんと……。

佐藤氏：

そのキービジュアルというのは、ゲームの画面のことだよね？

鳥嶋氏：

先にボス戦の構図だとか、決めのシーンの絵を仕上げた上で、そこに向けて作っていくんだよ。これを徹底的にやったのが、少し先の話になってしまうけど『クロノ・トリガー』ね。先に鳥山明さんが各シーンの絵を描いて、それに合わせる形でスクウェアがゲーム画面を作って、ゲームはそれを縫うように作っていった。

――そんなやり方で製作されていたとは……。鳥山さんの『クロノ・トリガー』の絵は、今もファンの間で「神がかっている」と語り継がれるものですが、むしろあの絵をインスピレーションにゲームがつくられていたのですか。

鳥嶋氏：

たぶん、もう今の鳥山さんに、あの絵は描けないと思う。彼の才能が全盛期にあったときに、まずは思うままに描いてもらったんだね。

――それって、もはやゲームデザインみたいな話から組み立てていく発想とは、真逆の場所からゲームが作られていますよね。ゲームの反響から先に設計しているというか……。

佐藤氏：

というか、もっと言ってしまうと、当時のジャンプの誌面の中でいかにウケるかという発想からゲームが作られていたということだよね。

鳥嶋氏：

もちろん。でもさ、そもそもタイムテーブルで言うと、発売まで半年くらい誌面を持たせなきゃいけないわけで、期待感を煽るのは必要になるわけでしょう。

佐藤氏：

でも、当時のゲームクリエイターに、そういう発想は難しかっただろうね。「キャッチーに作っていく」とか「ウリの要素をただ足すだけでなくて抜き出していく」みたいな、プロデューサー的なセンスはあまりなかったと思いますよ。

鳥嶋氏：

うん。でも、出版業界の編集者にとっては、「キャッチーな絵で売る」とか「パッケージでどう目を止まらせるか」みたいな考え方は当たり前のことだから。

――そもそも昔のゲームクリエイターって、いわゆる“コンピューターオタク”上がりの、マイナーな世界で活動されていた方が多かったですしね。

鳥嶋氏：

そういう部分については、やっぱり編集者のポジションの人間がダメ出しをしないといけなかったんですよ。

――以前に坂口さんにインタビューしたとき、確かに鳥嶋さんに言われた瞬間はカッとなったけど、家に帰って考えたら「いや、これは正しいぞ」と思えてきたと言ってました。

鳥嶋氏：

結局、クリエイターは自分が作ったものに対する思い入れや愛着があるんですよ。それに、「これは仲間と一緒に作ったものだから」とかつい思っちゃうしね。

でも、僕たち編集の仕事は、読者目線で「そういうクリエイターのエゴをいかに断ち切るか」にあるんです。全ては読者にとって、面白いか面白くないかだけ。だから、勝負は最初にパッと見た瞬間に決まる。キャッチーかキャッチーじゃないか――まずはそれなんですよ。

「自分をミダス王と自嘲していたんです」

――聞いていると、『クロノ・トリガー』も雑誌編集者的な発想から生まれたゲームということのようですね。

鳥嶋氏：

いや、それは少し違うかな。

元々は「エニックスが堀井雄二さんを甘やかしてるな」と思ったのが理由だね。堀井さんを本当に大事にして、ゲーム業界を活性化させたければ、やっぱり新しい企画をやらせなきゃいけないんだけど、『ドラクエ』ばかりつくらせてるじゃない。

そこで申し訳ないけど、エニックスの千田さんには無断で企画を動かすことにしたの。それで思いついたのが、鳥山明＋堀井雄二＋坂口博信＝『ドラクエ』＋『FF』＝『クロノ・トリガー』だったわけ。で、「史上最高のゲーム登場！」と銘打った校了紙をエニックスに送ったら、さすがに千田さんが慌てて電話をかけてきた。「これだけは勘弁してくれないか」と言ってきてね。

佐藤氏： 　そりゃそうだよねえ（笑）。

鳥嶋氏：

でも、そこは彼とも戦って、なんとか通したけどね。坂口にも、クレームは僕が全て引き受けると伝えていたし。

――ちなみに、ここでも鳥嶋さんは製作に絡んでないんですか？

鳥嶋氏：

もちろん。『ドラクエ』と一緒で、関わったのは基本的に座組のところだけ。

佐藤氏：

でも当時、やっかみ記事が出ていたよね。

鳥嶋氏：

いやもう、色々とあったよね。『噂の眞相』（※）に「鳥嶋は裏でバックマージンをもらっている」なんて書かれて、上司から疑われたりして（笑）。

※『噂の眞相』 1979年から2004年まで刊行されていた月刊雑誌。「タブーなき雑誌」を標榜して政治経済、社会情勢、芸能界ゴシップ報道などのスクープを掲載していた。

――もはや一介の編集者が通常やる仕事の範疇を超えはじめてますからね。

鳥嶋氏：

ただ、僕からすれば、坂口や堀井さんたちのプロジェクトにこんなに無責任に関われてしまうのは、お金をもらってないからなんだよ。ノーギャラだからこそ、僕は彼らに“お客さん目線”で好きなように言えるの。それはとても大事なことなんですよ。

だから僕は当時、よく自分を「ミダス王」（※）と自嘲してたんです。自分が触れた人間たちにお金を振りまくことはできる。でも、僕自身にお金が入ってくることはない。自分に触れたら、「ミダス王」はおしまいなんですよ。

※ミダス王 ギリシャ神話に登場する王で、触れたもの全てを黄金に変える能力を持つとされる。童話『王様の耳はロバの耳』にも登場し、耳がロバになってしまうことでも有名。

――もちろん、その一方で雑誌編集者として制作過程のドキュメンタリーを誌面で行って、ジャンプ編集部に還元していたのだと思いますが。あれ、でも『クロノ・トリガー』って、ジャンプというよりはVジャンプ主導の企画に見えたのですが……。

鳥嶋氏：

もちろん。だから、創刊時にVジャンプを盛り上げるために、半ばジャンプ編集部を騙したようなものだよね（笑）。初出しからあとは、ずっとVジャンプでの情報出しがメインだったんだから。

佐藤氏：

はっはっは（笑）。でも雑誌創刊時の、「これでイケる」という感覚の持ち方が、ファミマガやファミ通の編集者たちとは、ずいぶんと発想が違うね。やっぱりコンテンツから入る辺り、鳥嶋さんは、漫画雑誌をずっとやってきた人だなと思いますね。

――ただ、普通の漫画編集者だったら漫画家を連れてくる程度だと思うんですが、そこで『クロノ・トリガー』をぶち上げてしまうのが、なんとも鳥嶋さんらしいというか……。

鳥嶋氏：

でも、当時の僕は漫画雑誌でやれることは、ジャンプ編集部で全てやり終えたと思っていたから。

僕の中では、ジャンプを表1から目次まですべて変えてみせるという目標があってさ、巻頭でゲーム特集をして、グラビアもやった。後ろの方の読者ページも、さくまさんたちのコーナーに変えた。もちろん真ん中の漫画も、鳥山さんや桂さんとやった。そうなると、もう漫画でやることは残ってないな、という気分だったんだよね。

佐藤氏：

なるほどね（笑）。でもさ、『クロノ・トリガー』の実際の製作はどういう形で進んだの？ だいぶ大変だったと思うけど。

鳥嶋氏：

まず、坂口がさっきの『ウィザードリィ』と『ウルティマ』の良いとこどりみたいな感じで、『ドラクエ』と『FF』の世界観を一緒にしたいと言いだしたの。それで目をつけたのが、「剣と魔法があるけど、メカもある」という世界観ね。それにタイムスリップの要素を付け加えて、まずはスクウェア側から提案が持ち込まれてきた。

――実際に率いたのは、坂口さんたちですよね。沢山のプレイヤーがいて、だいぶ苦労されたんじゃないかと。

鳥嶋氏：

だって、堀井雄二さんなんて、スクウェアにとって異分子だもん。たぶん、あの主人公はスクウェアのゲームで唯一しゃべらないキャラクターなんじゃないの。

実際、彼らはかなり堀井さんに気をつかっていて、合宿場所も「全日空ホテル」だったからね。堀井さんは今でも、当時を思い返して「こんな豪華なところでやっていいんだろうか」と恐縮したと話すくらいだから（笑）。

ただね、最初は企画だけ坂口が立てて、実作業は別の社員に任せていたんだよ。当時の坂口はスクウェアが拡大期で、クリエイターのスカウトだとかで忙しかったからね。でも、出来上がったロムを見たら……なんかね、もう一つという出来なんだよ。

――じゃあ、ボツに……？

鳥嶋氏：

うーん（苦笑）、その担当も妙に性格が良い人で、僕も文句を言いづらいタイプだったこともあって「まあ仕方ないかなあ」と思って、ひとまず鳥山さんに見せに行くことにしちゃったんだよね。

ところが、新幹線で鳥山さんの家に着いたら、坂口から突然電話がかかってきて、いきなり「鳥山さんに見せました？」と聞いてくるの。「いや、これからだけど」と答えたら、坂口が「じゃあ、見せずにすぐ持ち帰ってください。これはダメです。僕が全面的に入って、最初から作り直します」と言うんだよ。それから、すぐに坂口は泊まり込みで作り直し始めた。

一同：

おおおお。

――カッコいい（笑）。

鳥嶋氏：

それを聞いたときに、「こいつ、信用できる男だな」と思ったね。いや、それまで信用してなかったわけじゃないんだけど（笑）。

佐藤氏：

それにしても、『クロノ・トリガー』はメディアが変わるたびにリメイクされてるよね。

鳥嶋氏：

今でもずっと長く売れてる。きっと何か人の琴線をくすぐるんだね。あのゲームは非常にオーソドックスな作りにしたのが勝因だと思いますね。ゲームとしての手触り感が抜群に良いんですよ。

English[edit]

Chrono Trigger" was created from an illustration by Akira Toriyama.

-After that, Jump went on to work not only with "Dracula" but also with "FF," didn't it?

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

I think the first time I met Hironobu Sakaguchi* was for "FFIII".

We were about to launch V Jump, and someone named Satoshi Shimomura**, who would later become the first card producer of "Yu-Gi-Oh! At the time, "FF" was starting to become popular among young people, but I had no relationship with him at all.

• Hironobu Sakaguchi

Born in 1962. Known as the game creator of the "Final Fantasy" series, he is also active as a screenwriter and film director. 2001, he launched the game production company Mistwalker and is currently the president of the company.

Satoshi Shimomura

Satoshi Shimomura was the first card producer of "Yu-Gi-Oh!", which was certified by Guinness World Records as the "world's best-selling trading card game" in 2011. The character Simon Moulin, who appears in the game, is named after Mr. Shimomura.

However, when Sakaguchi brought us the idea of featuring "FF IV" in Jump at that time, we decided to pass on it, though we were sorry to say so.

Our policy for the game page was not to simply show the game. Instead, we wanted to show the games in a big way on the front page of the magazine, so that the editorial department would be able to clearly express their opinions. Then we would develop the merchandising aspect of the game and make it into a major trend. That's what I thought we had to do if we were going to work for JUMP.

--I heard that when you interviewed Hironobu Sakaguchi before, he gave you a tremendous beating when you turned him down. ...... (laughs).

Mr. Torishima: Yeah, that happened.

Oh, yes, there was that (laughs).

(Laughs.) After all, "FF" is so unbalanced. The drama was fascinating, but the dungeons were strangely difficult, the dialogue was impossibly clunky, and there was a lot of self-indulgence, which I thought was a shame.

So when I first met Sakaguchi, I told him how bad "FF" was.

--He called me into the meeting room, and immediately lectured me about the lack of appeal of the antagonists.

Mr. Torishima: I asked him about it later.

When I asked him about it later, he said he was "extremely angry" (laughs). (Laughs.) He said, "I came because I was invited, and suddenly they complained about me. What is that?

But for me, I wanted to talk about "FF" with Sakaguchi that much. Because I really wanted to make "FF" another game that could stand alongside "Dracula. If that were to happen, I can't imagine how much the game industry would be revitalized. Just thinking about it is exciting, isn't it?

--The existence of a rival is what makes it exciting. That's exactly the idea behind JUMP.

Mr. Torishima: I think it's important for the industry to have rivals to help boost the industry.

The existence of rivals is very important for the industry. And, by the way, "FF" is now being handled by JUMP (laughs).

Mr. Sato: But even so, these two are now in the same league.

But the two have now merged, haven't they?

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

That is one of the main reasons why the game industry has become so boring. I think Square and Enix should never have merged.

--What happened to your relationship with Mr. Sakaguchi after that?

Mr. Torishima: I was very happy with the way things turned out.

Strangely enough, we started going out for drinks once a week. And I think Sakaguchi was the one who asked me out.

Mr. Sato: I was so irritated with him.

Even though he was irritated (laughs).

(laughs) -- Mr. Sakaguchi, you are indeed a good man.

Mr. Torishima: No, no.

Well, maybe he's just a bit of an "M" (laughs).

There was another "incident" after that, when Sakaguchi came to present "FFIV" to the JUMP editorial department, and they said, "What, it's not "Dracula"? In the end, "FFIV" was not featured in JUMP magazine.

--That's terrible (laughs).

Mr. Torishima: But from "V" onward, "FFIV" was not covered by Jump magazine.

However, starting with "V," we tried to start a tie-up like "Dracula.

However, ...... didn't catch on at all. After all, "Dracula" had Toriyama's pictures, so that alone made it catchy.

--But at that time, FF had pictures by Yoshitaka Amano, whose work is still talked about today, didn't it?

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

But it was not popular with the Jump magazine. As a result, sales of "FFV" were 2.5 times those of the previous title, but at first, its popularity in the magazine was already in tatters. So I talked to Sakaguchi, and we decided that we couldn't go on like this.

So we brought the idea of movie stills into the game.

In short, there was no point in showing something that had just started and had not been completed halfway. That's why we started making the key visuals right away. So, we show the key visual first and then say, "This scene is like this! and then the game is created afterwards. This is the beginning of the way game articles are published to this day.

--What a great site ...... is!

Mr. Sato: That key visual is the first step in the process of creating the game.

By "key visuals," you mean the game screens, right?

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

We would finish the composition of the boss battle first, or the picture of the decisive scene, and then we would make it for that. We did this thoroughly for "Chrono Trigger," which is a little further back in the story. Akira Toriyama drew the pictures of each scene first, then Square created the game screen to match the pictures, and the game was created as if it were stitched together.

--I didn't realize that this was the way the game was made. ...... Toriyama's drawings for "Chrono Trigger" are still talked about by fans as being "divine.

Mr. Torishima: I think it was.

I don't think Toriyama-san could draw those pictures anymore. When he was at the peak of his talent, I had him draw as he wanted.

-That's no longer the case, the game is being created from a place that is the exact opposite of the idea of assembling from a story like game design. You are designing the game first from the repercussions of the game, or .......

Mr. Sato: .

Or, to put it more bluntly, the game was created from the idea of how popular it would be in the pages of JUMP magazine at the time.

Mr. Torishima: Of course.

Of course. But, in terms of the timetable, the magazine had to hold the game for about six months before it was released, so it was necessary to create a sense of anticipation, wasn't it?

Mr. Sato: Yes.

But it must have been difficult for game creators at that time to think like that. I don't think they had the producer's sense to "make the game catchy" or to "extract the best elements from the game, rather than just adding them.

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

Yes. But for editors in the publishing industry, it is commonplace to think about "how to sell with catchy pictures" or "how to make the package catch the eye.

--In the past, many game creators were so-called "computer geeks" who were active in a minor world.

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

In that sense, it was necessary for someone in the position of an editor to make a mistake.

--When I interviewed Mr. Sakaguchi before, he said that he was indeed angry when Mr. Torishima told him what to do, but when he went home and thought about it, he thought, "No, this is the right thing to do.

Mr. Torishima: .

After all, creators have feelings and attachments to what they have created. They also tend to think, "This is something I made together with my colleagues.

But our job as editors, from the reader's point of view, is to "cut off the creator's ego. All that matters is whether it is interesting or not for the reader. That's why the game is decided at the first glance. Catchy or not catchy--that's the first thing.

I used to mock myself as King Midas.

--So it sounds like "Chrono Trigger" was also a game that was born out of the ideas of a magazine editor.

Mr. Torishima: .

No, that's a little different.

The original reason was that I thought "Enix was spoiling Yuji Horii. If you really value Mr. Horii and want to revitalize the game industry, you have to let him work on new projects, but all you let him do is make "Dracula.

I'm sorry, but I decided to work on the project without Mr. Senda of Enix's permission. Then I came up with the idea of Akira Toriyama + Yuji Horii + Hironobu Sakaguchi = "Dracula" + "FF" = "Chrono Trigger". Then, we sent out a proof paper with the title "The greatest game of all time! Mr. Senda called me in a panic and said, "Please don't do this. Mr. Senda called me in a panic and said, "Can you give us a break on this?

Mr. Sato: Of course that's right (laughs).

Mr. Torishima: But I had to fight with him too.

But I fought with him and managed to get it through. I told Sakaguchi that I would take care of all the complaints.

--By the way, you were not involved in the production here either?

Mr. Torishima: Of course.

Of course. Just like with "Dracula," I was basically only involved in the arrangement of the game.

Mr. Sato: Yes.

But at the time, there were some articles that criticized you, weren't there?

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

Well, there was a lot going on. Rumor no Shinso* wrote that "Torishima was getting back margin in the background," and my bosses suspected it (laughs).

A monthly magazine published from 1979 to 2004. It was a monthly magazine that published scoops on politics, economics, social conditions, and entertainment gossip under the slogan "a magazine without taboos.

--It is no longer a job for an ordinary editor, is it?

Mr. Torishima: I think it's just a matter of time.

But from my point of view, the reason I can be so irresponsible in getting involved in Sakaguchi and Horii's projects is because I am not being paid. Because I am not paid, I can say whatever I want to them from the customer's point of view. That is very important.

That's why I used to mock myself as the "Midas King" (*). I can give money to the people I touch, but I can't give money to myself. But I myself would never receive any money. Once I touch myself, "King Midas" is finished.

• King Midas is a king in Greek mythology who is said to have the ability to turn everything he touches into gold. He also appears in the fairy tale "The King's Ears are Donkey Ears," and is famous for turning his ears into donkeys.

--Of course, on the other hand, as a magazine editor, I think he was giving back to the Jump editorial department by making a documentary of the production process in the magazine. Hey, but "Chrono Trigger" seemed to be more of a V Jump-led project than Jump. ......

Mr. Torishima:.

Of course. So it's like we tricked the Jump editorial department halfway through the first issue to get V Jump excited (laughs). (laughs) After the initial launch, the main focus was on getting the information out in V Jump for the rest of the year.

Mr. Sato: Hahaha (laughs).

Ha ha ha (laughs). But the way you had a sense of "this is good enough" when the magazine was first published was very different from the editors of Famimagazine and Famitsu. I think you are a person who has been working with manga magazines for a long time, as you start from the contents.

--If you were an ordinary manga editor, you would just bring in a manga artist, but the way you came up with "Chrono Trigger" is very typical of Torishima-san. ......

Mr. Torishima: But at the time, I could do it with manga magazines.

But at the time, I thought I had done everything I could do for a manga magazine in the Jump editorial department.

Mr. Torishima: .

But at the time, I thought I had done everything I could do for a manga magazine in the Jump editorial department.

I had a goal to change everything in JUMP from the front page to the table of contents, including a game feature at the top of the magazine and a gravure section. I also changed the reader's page in the back to a section for Sakuma and his team. Of course, I also did a manga in the middle with Toriyama-san and Katsura-san. Then I felt like there was nothing left to do in the manga.

Mr. Sato: I see.

I see (laughs). But how did the actual production of "Chrono Trigger" proceed? I'm sure it was a lot of work.

Mr. Torishima: First of all, Sakaguchi was the one who wrote "Willow" earlier.

First of all, Sakaguchi said he wanted to combine the world views of "Dracula" and "FF," like the "Wizardry" and "Ultima" I mentioned earlier. Then, I decided to create a world with swords and magic, but also with mecha. Then we added the element of time slips, and Square came to us with a proposal.

--The proposal was first brought to us by Square, and then Sakaguchi-san and his team actually led the project. There were a lot of players, and I imagine it must have been very difficult.

Mr. Torishima: Yes.

Because Yuji Horii was a foreigner to Square. I think he is the only character in Square's games who doesn't talk.

In fact, they were very careful about Mr. Horii, and the training camp was held at the ANA Hotel. Even now, when Mr. Horii thinks back on those days, he says he was afraid to play in such a luxurious place (laughs).

But you see, at first, Sakaguchi only planned the project and left the actual work to another employee. At the time, Square was in a period of expansion, and Sakaguchi was busy scouting for creators and so on. But when I looked at the finished ROM, I found that ...... was not as good as it should have been.

--So you rejected ......?

Mr. Torishima: Hmmm.

Well, the person in charge had an oddly good personality, and I was the type of person who had a hard time complaining, so I thought, "Well, it can't be helped," and decided to go show it to Toriyama-san.

However, when I arrived at Toriyama-san's house by bullet train, I suddenly received a phone call from Sakaguchi, who suddenly asked me, "Did you show it to Toriyama-san? I said, "No, I'm just about to show it to Mr. Toriyama. When I answered, "No, I'm just about to show it to him," Sakaguchi replied, "Then please take it home immediately without showing it to him. This is no good. I'll go in and do it all over again from the beginning. Immediately after that, Sakaguchi stayed overnight and began to rebuild it.

Everyone: "Oh, wow.

Oh, wow.

--That's cool (laughs).

Mr. Torishima: When I heard that, I thought, "This is a guy I can trust.

When I heard that, I thought, "This guy can be trusted. It's not that I didn't trust him before that (laughs).

Mr. Sato: But still...

But "Chrono Trigger" has been remade every time the media changes, hasn't it?

Mr. Torishima: It still sells for a long time.

It still sells for a long time. It must tickle people's heartstrings somehow. I think the reason for the success of that game was that we made it very orthodox. It has a very good feel as a game.

From: Interviews