Lavos time flow not perpendicular?

[placidchap]

Yea, that is why I posted my thoughts chrono eric.  I needed other peoples brains thinking about it and fleshing it out rather than just my own.  It wasn't until I posted that I started to realize a couple of flaws and misunderstandings in my own theory...but I still stand by that the PD no longer exists, at least with Lavos in it. (I like to think that Lavos didn't create the PD, but Lavos accessed another dimension, that is more than just a "pocket".)  I'll have to review the Time Error theory before I can comment on what you said as I haven't really taken the time to understand it...not to mention it is yet another thing I do not like the name of.  But at least we both agree on the main principle of my theory.

[chrono eric]

Yeah, I can't stand the name of Time Error either. But I use it so everyone is on the same page with each other. At first I wasn't sure if you were right until I worked it out completely. And you definitely are. How do we get the Compendium to change it? (and other problems with their theories that me and Eske have worked out)

Time Error is a simple theory. There are several different interpretations of it but this one is the most useful. It basically states that there is another axis that time runs in that is perpendicular to the normal flow of time, but only time travellers go through Time Error. So, every time a time traveller makes a voyage at least to the past (and probably to the future too), they end up at a new point and a new timeline on Time Error. This neatly explains why time seems to be passing for Crono and co. on their own time axis. Take this as an example.

Time Error 0: Person A time travels at Time X to Time X-400. This timeline does not have Person A existing at Time X-400.

But when does he arrive? He can't arrive in the past on Time Error 0 because then Person A could read about his own time travelling exploits before they happen in a sense. The present is built upon the past, and he exists in a present in which he did not exist in the past. So:

Time Error 1: new timeline. Person A appears at Time X-400. This timeline has Person A existing in the past, and Person A' (new version of Person A in the future) could read about his time travelling exploits in the past.

Simple, right?

[Eske]

Yea, that is why I posted my thoughts chrono eric.  I needed other peoples brains thinking about it and fleshing it out rather than just my own.  It wasn't until I posted that I started to realize a couple of flaws and misunderstandings in my own theory...but I still stand by that the PD no longer exists, at least with Lavos in it. (I like to think that Lavos didn't create the PD, but Lavos accessed another dimension, that is more than just a "pocket".)  I'll have to review the Time Error theory before I can comment on what you said as I haven't really taken the time to understand it...not to mention it is yet another thing I do not like the name of.  But at least we both agree on the main principle of my theory.

I feel almost the same way.  I don't think a pocket dimension ever existed for Lavos.  If the theory came about to explain the "intact shell" quirk,  its just a gameplay quirk.  The characters don't stand there and say something like:

Marle: "Wow, he's damaged in this era too!"
Lucca: "Perhaps he generates his own dimension, that would explain it!"

Nope. We are probably not meant to focus on it.   

As for the blue background, the only clue we are given is that Lavos's power makes the dimension unstable or creates distortions.

The game gives the impression on several occasions that Lavos is buried deep within the earth, absorbing its power.    Perhaps things should have been left at that.

Not trying to be a buzz kill lol, just saying that there is a difference between interpreting and twisting events.

Example - Melchior and Janus vanish despite being safe in the village after Zeal falls.

Interpreting: "Maybe Zeal wanted the gurus gone, regardless of their location. She did banish them prior to this incident."

Twisting: "They vanished because their counterparts, protected by TTI, time travelled at that point."       

=============
@chrono eric:     I'm trying to come up with a different idea of how time travel works, based on examples from the game alone.  It will be tough, yes, but I think it's worth the trouble.   Here is my first rough draft based on a recent playthrough:

Entity Focus: Because time travel is limited to/exists within the planet's memories, standard causal relationships need not apply.  To explain further, imagine that the player's view of the game from the outside-in represents the Entity's view or focus. If the the Entity's focus does not rest on a certain era, changes in that era will not produce any change in the Era of Focus (EoF).

Example: EoF = 1000AD.  Marle enters 600AD, by some Compendium models 1000AD should be replaced by a new version of 1000AD reflecting the changes made. This does not happen.  Instead, Crono, Lucca and all others remain totally unaffected.

Example: EoF = 1000AD.  Crono tries to get Moonstone from the greedy mayor. He fails to do so but buys some jerky at the snail stop. Then time travels to...
               EoF = 600AD.  Crono gives the mayor's ancestor the jerky.  He then returns to 1000AD.
               EoF = 1000AD.  Crono sees that the mayor is now kind and generous.

Now how did I come up with this idea?  Easy, the famous Fiona Forest scene.    My interpretation of those events is as follows:

While the group is discussing a possible Entity overseeing the adventure, Marle asks Lucca about a time period she would want to travel to.  Lucca shys away because she doesn't want to remember.   But the planet does remember the incident - and in doing so creates a gate for Lucca to enter.  When she changes the past and returns, Robo somehow understands what has happened and comments on how that moment in her life must have been weighing on her mind.

To me, this scene suggests a few things that I believe (for now)  may have been intended:

1. The Entity is watching over them.
2. The Entity feels kindness/pity/etc towards them
3. The Entity can, in fact, create gates     and to specific time periods.

This ^ led me to believe that the planet may be focusing on the Crono Team during the whole adventure.    Of course this is my speculation/fan theory  - but it's based upon Robo's comments and I'm trying really hard to gravitate around events in the game and its themes, rather than physics.   Hopefully this won't be a bust.

[chrono eric]

It is an interesting idea and you should try to flesh it out further Eske. What I mean by this is, TTI, Time Error, TB, etc. are ideas derived from the game to try to explain a traditional concept of time travel - ie: literally going back into the past.

But if one were to take some sort of existential view of reality, an Entity-time travel interpretation may be just as valid. But it would have to both explain and predict everything that TTI, Time Error, and TB does - otherwise it is not an equally good theory. See my point? Until then, I think I'll continue interpreting events in the game using these theories since they have been so successful.

But I really like yours though, lets try to work it out more.

[Eske]

It is an interesting idea and you should try to flesh it out further Eske. What I mean by this is, TTI, Time Error, TB, etc. are ideas derived from the game to try to explain a traditional concept of time travel - ie: literally going back into the past.

But if one were to take some sort of existential view of reality, an Entity-time travel interpretation may be just as valid. But it would have to both explain and predict everything that TTI, Time Error, and TB does - otherwise it is not an equally good theory. See my point? Until then, I think I'll continue interpreting events in the game using these theories since they have been so successful.

But I really like yours though, lets try to work it out more.

Time Bastard - This theory is based on reason, yes, but also thrives on a lack of information.   TB should hold that counterparts either enter gates and go to the DBT or simply vanish where they stand at the original's departure time X.    Melchior and Janus aren't really evidence of this because even Robo comments that they where probably taken into gates created by Lavos.  Nowhere else in the game do we hear anything from anyone suggesting that people vanish out of nowhere.  i.e. :

Crono's Mom:  "Oh Crono there you are!  I was talking to you earlier and when I turned around you were missing dear."
Taban: "Well if it isn't my beautiful daughter.  Try not to sneak out when I ask you for help next time!"

Nope.  TB "works" because we don't see any counter to it.  By that logic, I can make any theory I want and call it 100% valid because no visible counter in the game exists. i.e. :

Chrono and Co. can visibly see the damage numbers over the monsters' heads.     See what I mean?  Its crazy but it's in the game, and no one ever mentions that they "can't tell how much damage they are doing".    Hmph.

Time Traveller Immunity - Assumes a need to protect time travel events because of brittle timelines.  For example: changes to the past will affect the future.
Though that statement makes sense, it's not something we see in the game ALL the time.   [Marle's travel doesn't change the timeline,  Ayla missing for millions of years changes nothing.]    It's easy to make a rule and then dismiss in-game counters to it - but it doesn't make much sense to do so.

Time Error - Nothing wrong with it (the original, Compendium version - not the one I used).  It explains how "time" is measured for time travellers and explains why Gaspar is unaffected by changes to the timeline. 

See?  I'm not a hater.  I just have this "back to the game" movement in mind for fan theories.  TB and TTI are built on a structure that ignores the source of the gates, the Entity. 

[chrono eric]

Yes, but I could easily make a counter theory to your "Entity perception-time travel" theory (come up with a better name so I don't have to keep making ones up). For example, in Fiona's forest Robo talks about the entity "remembering" it's past. Well, if the Entity is an immortal being, and it remembers it's past, and it has power over time and space - then a perfectly acceptable alternate theory could simply be that whenever the Entity remembers an event in it's past, a gate is created to that place in space and time.

In this theory, nothing about TTI/TB/Our interpretation of Time Error, is changed. The only thing that is changed is the concept that the Entity creates gates and the reason why it creates gates. Time travel still works in the traditional sense and is still subject to the same physical problems that TTI/TB etc. solve.

So if we are to come up with a theory that is true to the game and nothing else, it will have to be a theory which has no need for TTI/TB at all which is the point I'm trying to make. It will have to be some sort of existential interpretation of time and space in the Chronoverse, which could potentially be troublesome.

[placidchap]

I just realized that "my" theory...was pretty much already said over a year ago by Chrono'99 in the Lavos and Guardian Paradox thread   bugger.

[chrono eric]

Yes but you said it better. Props go to you.

[ZeaLitY]

If you take it back to the games, you'll encounter a lot of disparate issues. Yuji Horii really didn't cover himself, and it's not like we could have expected Toriyama to give a damn about hard science fiction either. Whatever produces the least plot holes while making the most sense works.

The Pocket Dimension theory is probably history.

[Eske]

If you take it back to the games, you'll encounter a lot of disparate issues. Yuji Horii really didn't cover himself, and it's not like we could have expected Toriyama to give a damn about hard science fiction either. Whatever produces the least plot holes while making the most sense works.

Yea, I've pretty much come to accept that now.  For awhile I tried to think of something that stayed more "true" to the games  so to speak.  After failing to do so, I've decided to just go with the flow and hope that someone else thinks of something drastic.                        Also... it looks like someone is trying to bring new life to PD.

[ZeaLitY]

Well, no, I think it's probably going to die...You're right in that it was sort of a more "stretch" than some other things in the beginning, since nothing was explicitly stated to confirm it, and at the same time, the internal consistency of the game doesn't absolutely depend on it (like it may with TTI or things to avoid paradoxes). There's also an awful lot of gameplay surrounding it.

We'll see; it's the last thing we'll tackle in this analysis review.

[placidchap]

There is one part of the PD theory that I don't really mind...the PD itself...why not have a PD that is just on the "normal" 4D time?  A place under the Earth's crust, same w, x, y and z coordinates but with a different "v" value...w being time and v being dimension. 

As a layman reading about dimensions (on wikipedia no less), we only perceive the x,y and z dimensions but there is supposedly many more that we can not see.  Why not have Lavos be able to move in one or more of these other dimensions, out of our ability to see it directly?

[chrono eric]

Yes, that is not out of the question, but it would be pointless as it wouldn't actually predict anything. The value of these fan-theories is that they both explain and predict plot events in the games. For the sake of this, Lavos might as well be existing physically within the earth's crust and not in a PD of any sort, because it would produce the same effect.

[placidchap]

Yea, the only reason I said what I said, and forgot to mention(dur), was to explain the blue distortion.

[Zergplex]

Another viable theory for the blue field is that Lavos as an entity exerts a powerful force on spacetime and that the blue field are space and time distorting around him.