Taking another look at how Serge's survival causes Home World's destruction

[FaustWolf]

I think it's been awhile since everyone has taken a look at this, and I'm interested in any new takes on the matter.

To review briefly, here is the conundrum as I see it. Both Home and Another share the same past until 1010 AG (anno Guardia), at which point Serge either drowns or does not drown on Opassa Beach. This past includes the destruction of Lavos in 12,000 BG (Before Guardia) by Crono & Co., if my understanding of canon is correct. Thus Lavos shouldn't even be an issue in either dimension until such point in time as Time Devourer begins sucking up the universe...I think?

But somehow Serge's survival in Home World, or at the very least some set of factors affected by his survival, leads to the world's destruction.

Two questions to start off with.

1.) Does the available info indicate that, in fact, the Day of Lavos occurred in Home World's future, 1999 AG? Or could we relax this assumption and play with the idea of, say, the Time Devourer causing the world's destruction in 2300 AG? Thus, similar outcome, but different means.

2.) If Serge leaves Home World for Another, a dimension is created in which Home progresses in Serge's absence. If the Dead Sea requires Serge's presence, would the Dead Sea disappear in this hypothetical "Home w/o Serge" dimension? If the Dead Sea's existence is not a paradox in this case, would this imply that the factors leading to the Dead Sea's creation were set in motion by Serge's survival, but that those factors will play out even in Serge's absence? I.e., his presence isn't really needed beyond his survival at that instant on Opassa Beach?

We know that Lynx's activities are different in Home and Another, correct? That difference might ultmately stem from Serge's survival, considering Kid had to interrupt Wazuki/Lynx to stop the drowning.

I expect we're probably not going to get to the bottom of this, as the answer exists in Kato's mind half a world away, but a discussion on this matter will help me develop a deeper understanding of current Compendium theories dealing with this tricky subject.

[Thought]

A few questions that might help guide such a discussion.

1) Does the Ruined Future represented in the Dead Sea have to be the exact same ruined future that was negated with the defeat of Lavos in CT? That is, as long as Serge's continued existence results in a ruined future, does it necessarily have to be the ruined future? It might be more poetic than factual to say that the Dead Sea is a discarded timeline; it is a ruined future, and a ruined future wasn't supposed to exist. Particularly, we see a few elements that imply that this ruined future isn't the same as the one that Chrono & Co experienced. Johnny, for example, is dead in CC yet in CT he was most definitely alive. The structures in general seem to be quite different from the architecture we see in CT (but this might just be that we saw different parts of the same place). Yet even the enemies seem to be of a different sort; fewer mutants and standard machines but significantly more Robo Duckys and steam-punk Highwaymen.

2) Given the various "paradoxes" from the first game (particularly the Guardia Line paradox), it would seem that no, when Serge leaves Home World for Another, a new dimension (or really timeline, as these things seem to be different in the series) is not created in which Home World's future progresses in Serge's absence. I don't think there is an easy way to distinguish if Serge's mere survival (and the world-wide changes that came with it) or if his continued existence is what causes the ruined future.

While this is admittedly not accepted theory, I am still of the belief that a time/dimension travelers actions that-would-have-been are essentially preserved until that time/dimension traveler reaches a point on the timeline in which those would-have-been actions would have been actually happened, or not. The future doesn't change until actions are taken (or not taken) to change it.

3) Why are the two dimensions different? Does Van's father, Gogh, stay a painter because Serge lived and if he had died he would have become a merchant, or is this difference less direct? Did the Dimensional Split merely give chance a "do over"? To an extent we can attribute the difference between the two dimensions as the result of the records of Fate functioning or not, but is that the entire extent of the differences?

A few minor questions:

a) Are there two Lynxs? After all, Lynx can travel between dimensions (at least, when Serge becomes Lynx he can), implying that like Serge, Lynx is a "missing piece" from one dimension or another.

b) Which future-Kid saved Serge, Home World or Another World? Of course, when Kid saved him there was only one world, but once having saved him, any time travel would presumably be to that dimensions future. Thus we might identify the Kid that saved Serge with the Kid from a not-ruined-future dimension, hence being closer to Another World. But, as mentioned, time travel back to the future would seemingly put two Kids in Home World's future (one that is part of the ruined future timeline and one that isn't). Time Bastard might fix that, but that would then seem to indicate that future-kid in both dimensions are part of the utopia-timeline.

I expect we're probably not going to get to the bottom of this, as the answer exists in Kato's mind half a world away...

Ooo, an interesting theory. Do we have any evidence that Kato might actually have an answer? If so, what we might really need is a retranslation of CC; the answer may lie hidden in what is otherwise a mangled translation.

[FaustWolf]

Awesome, I was hoping you'd jump into this, Thought!

I'm going to lift some pertinent details from the Dead Sea FAQ at GameFAQs (note that Compendium theory is in direct contradiction to the Dead Sea FAQ, I'm just pulling neutral info that's conveniently sitting in front of me right now).

Script sections regarding Serge & the end of the world.

Chrono Trigger Ghosts to Serge:
SCRIPT:  "We... No... Everyone worked to save the planet's future for
         nothing... It's all because of you! You killed it!" - Lucca

SCRIPT:  "How could you? How could you do such a thing...!? It's all
         your fault that the world is going to end up like this! It's
         all your fault, Serge!!! Murderer!!!" – Marle

SCRIPT:  "But the future that was supposed to have disappeared is about
         to be restored here... The future destruction of our planet is
         going to become a reality in this world once again..." – Marle

SCRIPT:  "The vengeance of the future we killed is about to begin...
         With Serge serving as the trigger..." - Crono


And here's a section from bubblebobby's partial translation of the Chrono Cross Ultimania Book:

................................................................
  Dead Sea – Omen of Destruction
................................................................

"The Dead Sea is the true form of this planet's future." - Miguel

Home World is the irregular world which FATE was unable to ??assume??. In
this world, the Dead Sea exists instead of the Sea of Eden. This, in the
future on the time axis which Serge survived, is the other future where
Chronopolis does not exist - that is to say that the scene that one can see
in the Dead Sea is waiting to occur. That is the meaning it portrays. And the
scene that was developed in the Dead Sea, is the true form of the future that
Crono and company should have avoided (=killed), the future that was
destroyed. In other words, it is ominously indicated in this place that, in
the case if Serge were to survive, the world will probably be destroyed.

This is related to Serge being and "Arbiter." At the point in time when Serge
continues to survive, and at the point in time when Serge visits the Dead Sea,
because the possibility of him being swallowed by the Time Devourer and
landing the world to destruction is high, this vision of the future is born.
But, the future that is shown in this place is fluid [unstable]. What kind of
fate the world will follow after this, will depend on Serge's actions
hereafter.

What's the status of bubblebobby's partial translation? If acceptable, does the bolded paragraph answer the conundrum right then and there?

[Thought]

Hmm, if I might perform some grammatical analysis of those script quotes:

SCRIPT:  "We... No... Everyone worked to save the planet's future for
         nothing... It's all because of you! You killed it!" - Lucca

Serge killed "it," but what is it referring to? The future, specifically the saved future. I think we can all agree that a "good" future can be killed in many ways. Lavos is one such manner, but others could exist (a nuclear apocalypse being quite similar to the ruined future from CT, for example).

Another key word is "because." The future was "killed" (rather melodramatic of Lucca but it establishes a poetic rather than strictly literal nature to her words) as a result of Serge. This could be a result of him breathing, squishing a bug he wasn't supposed to, or any number of things resulting from Serge living. We don't even know if Serge is the direct or indirect cause; merely, he is the ultimate cause. From this it may be that he is the actor or that which is acted upon.

Really the only hard facts we get from this is that the "saved" future has, in that dimension, been discarded, and that Serge is the ultimate cause of that (the exact nature needs subsequent quotes to determine).

SCRIPT:  "How could you? How could you do such a thing...!? It's all
         your fault that the world is going to end up like this! It's
         all your fault, Serge!!! Murderer!!!" – Marle

Here we have a little more information. If Ghost-Marle is correct, Serge did an action (he did such a "thing") that resulted in the world ending up like the Dead Sea. It still doesn't mean that the world is the result of a Day of Lavos event, just that the world ends up ruined ("like this"). Again, we have a bit of poetic license here; Serge has "murdered" the future. Which actually brings up an interesting quote from "Lynx." If I am recalling correctly, he refers to Serge once as the "Assassin of Time."

So from these two quotes so far we know that the saved future has been discarded as a result of something Serge "did." The problem is, "did" from whose perspective? That is, did Serge do something in the past or future that caused the death of the future? If he already did it, then the game is entirely dependent on joining the two dimensions (so that what ever Serge "did" might be erased in the process). If he is to do it, well...

SCRIPT:  "But the future that was supposed to have disappeared is about
         to be restored here... The future destruction of our planet is
         going to become a reality in this world once again..." – Marle

This seems to indicate it is that exact same future from CT that is about to be restored, but again that isn't necessitated. What is the future that was supposed to have disappeared? Just a Lavos-created apocalypse or a ruined future in general? If the latter, then a ruined future could be restored without the Day of Lavos.

Here we have an odd conundrum. The discarded future "is about to be restored" but the Dead Sea already exists. It would seem then that the discarded future isn't "about to be" restored but that it had already been restored. Verb tense is particular important here. This relates to the above quote too; seemingly the Ghosts are claiming that Serge is going to do something that has already happened.

On one hand, this identifies that action that Serge performs to doom the future as taking place in Serge's Future. On the other hand, this means that Serge is essentially "fated" to destroy the future; it is already assured, as the Dead Sea already exists. Unless, of course, the Dead Sea isn't the actual future of Home World but a possible future, or even a location that has an odd connection to the DBT and is siphoning a discarded future back into reality. The Ghost-Children are then like the Ghost of Christmas Present; "I see a vacant enertron in the poor chimney–corner, and a robot without an owner, carefully preserved. If these shadows remain unaltered, the future will die."

SCRIPT:  "The vengeance of the future we killed is about to begin...
         With Serge serving as the trigger..." - Crono

And again here we have better confirmation that the Dead Sea comes about because of something Serge will do, yet it already exists. This is almost diametrically opposed to Chrono Trigger, where the future doesn't change unless people make it change (and doesn't exist as changed until that change occurs). Curiously, this may well mean that at the end of Chrono Cross, we do not have an ideal future but a ruined future. I think we all would agree that the "vengeance of the future we killed" is referring to Lavos/the Time Devourer. Which means that Serge is somehow activating (or "triggering") that vengeance.

From these quotes, I am inclined to discard the possibility that the future is a result of Serge merely being absorbed by the Time Devourer. From these quotes it does not seem to be tenable that Serge merely existing or not (or merely being absorbed by something else) is sufficient. Serge has to do something, he has to be the ultimate actor that causes the future's downfall; being absorbed isn't Serge doing anything. Being absorbed might allow the Time Devourer to destroy the future, but then that is the Time Devourer, not Serge, who is the acting agent.

So then, we might ask, in what way, after the Dead Sea events, do Serge's actions allow the Time Devourer to enact its vengeance?

In the game we see two very obvious events that might fit this description:

1) Serge’s actions directly allow the Dragon Gods to remerge (and the whole Dragon God had already been absorbed by the Time Devourer, possibly as the DG’s future from the Reptite Dimension would have been sent to the DBT after the Entity drew it to the Keystone Dimension). Serge then gave the Time Devourer an avatar in reality.

2) Serge’s actions directly link the DBT to the real world by using the Time Egg as Opassa beach; a gate, such as the one produced by the egg, should be able to be used in both directions.

However, other actions may also have resulted in the ruined future. But this seems to give us a time frame from which to work: the dimensions split in 1010AD, but the action that restored an apocalyptic future occured after Serge talked to the Ghost Children (so possibly even the evaporation of the Dead Sea is what results in a ruined future).

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

My understanding of Serge's role in the destruction of the timeline has to do with his existence.  In the original timeline he was supposed to die.  However, due to the intervention of both Schala and Kid, Serge survived.  Right there time was altered to such an extent that the future was in jeopardy.

By simply existing when he's not supposed to, Serge created two timelines.  I personally feel that the differences in the two timelines all subtly stem from Serge surviving/dying.  For instance, the fisherman in Home World became an apathetic crazy in Another World, having given up on fishing after Serge died.  Serge is the pebble that hit the water, so to speak, creating ripples of effects and alternate decisions.  Thus, both Home World and Another World are drastically different simply because of Serge's existence (or lack thereof).

But how is Serge a trigger to destruction, and what is his role in recreating a ruined future?  This a difficult question to answer, and every time I think I wrap my mind around it, the thought escapes me and I find myself running in circles.

Let's start at the beginning of everything: Chrono Trigger.  Crono and friends destroyed Lavos, the planetoid parasite, changing the timeline to allow a new and beautiful future to be created.  But the story doesn't end there.

In essence, a part of Lavos was able to survive.  During the Ocean Palace Disaster (an event seen within Chrono Trigger), through an unknown combination of space-time distortions and the powerful Mammon Machine, the very essences of Lavos and Schala combined.  Creating a new being, "The Time Devourer", this creature was Lavos to the next level - a being not intent on devouring the planet but 'born' with the intent to devour all space-time.

Existing within counter-time in the Darkness Beyond Time, the Time Devourer needed time to mature.  Until it reached maturity, it would be unable to devour space-time.  So it waited, growing. 

Meanwhile, Balthasar, having been pulled into a Gate in the Ocean Palace Disaster, was hurled into the new future created by Crono and friends.  Using the technology of the era (and possibly the powers of the Frozen Flame), Balthasar found out about the Time Devourer and Schala, and orchestrated an in-depth chain of events that would lead to the destruction of the Time Devourer and the freeing of Schala: Project Kid.

Through Project Kid Chronopolis was created.  The Counter-Time Experiment occurred, throwing Chronopolis into the far past.  El Nido was created.  Serge was born.  Everything was going according to plan.

Because a part of Schala still existed inside the Time Devourer, in 1010 AD she heard the cry of Serge and opted to save his life.  Thus Kid was created and Serge was ultimately saved.  Why Schala chose Serge is beyond us.  With her vantage point in the Darkness Beyond Time she could've (in theory) saved anyone, anywhere.  But she chose Serge.  Perhaps his link to Schala is more than we realize...?  Perhaps there are others outside of El Nido who were saved by Schala?  After all, Schala, as a part of the Time Devourer, had the very powers of the Time Devourer at her disposal.

With Serge being rescued by Kid in 1010 AD, the timeline split into two.  Serge and Kid met and the final step of Project Kid took place, setting up the destruction of the Time Devourer and the freedom of Schala.

But Serge, the Arbiter of Chronopolis' Frozen Flame, had the ultimate ability to control the Frozen Flame (although he doesn't through any of the events in Chrono Cross - although, traveling back in time to save Kid from the orphanage fire may have had something to do with the Frozen Flame and Serge's innate ability to access it).  Knowing that Serge was the final piece of the puzzle - the one to travel to the Darkness of Time and use the Chrono Cross element - there was a 50/50 chance of survival.

Had Serge successfully used the Chrono Cross element, the Time Devourer would be destroyed, Schala would be freed, and the two timelines would merge to create a new timeline.  But had Serge lost to the Time Devourer, the Time Devourer would consume Serge and gain both the Chrono Cross element and the ability to control the powerful Frozen Flame.  If Serge were to lose, all would be over.  Forever.

The ghost-children, in my mind, are the products of counter-time in which Serge loses to the Time Devourer, thus allowing Serge to act as the final piece of destruction for the future.  As such, I believe that Serge's role in the destruction of the future is actually more than the destruction of the future.  Viewing the ghost-children as echoes of counter-time, viewing their words as metaphor, Serge's ultimate role wasn't just the potential destruction of the future - it was the potential cultivation of space-time being destroyed.

[Thought]

I don't think I already asked this but...

Do we even know for sure if the future was resaved at the end of Chrono Cross?

EDIT: If the future wasn't "resaved" but the dimensions were joined, would that mean that the "ideal timeline" resulting is actually one that leads to a ruined future?

[FaustWolf]

If the Time Devourer is destroyed in CC and the Time Devourer were an integral element in Home World's future destruction, I suppose the world *would* be saved in the unified timeline...maybe?

Interesting. Is it possible that some interaction between Serge and the Time Devourer is necessary for the end of Home World? As Boo says, it could simply be Serge's absorption into the Time Devourer at some point...maybe a fresh arbiter would give the Time Devourer some extra juice? Maybe Schala's soul had been sucked nearly dry, and Serge's absorption by the TD allowed its processes to accelerate to the point that it was able to take action in 2300 AG, as opposed to some infinitely far-out year?

The quote from the Ultimania book says,

...at the point in time when Serge visits the Dead Sea,
because the possibility of him being swallowed by the Time Devourer and
landing the world to destruction is high, this vision of the future is born.
But, the future that is shown in this place is fluid [unstable]. What kind of
fate the world will follow after this, will depend on Serge's actions
hereafter.

Any ideas why the possibility of Serge being swallowed by the TD is larger than normal in the Dead Sea? Are the temporal and spacial disturbances surrounding the Dead Sea conducive to that sort of thing?

[Thought]

Actually, that brings up a very good point. If the Time Devourer, true to its name, devours all space-time, why would it bother with destroying Home World's future instead of just consuming that future? Or, perhaps, is that what it means for time to be devoured by the TD? Rather than being consumed and gone, it is consumed and wasted, but like how Lavos consumed the earth in CT. When the TD devours a timeline, perhaps it leaves a ruined, unchangeable future in its wake, like how Laovs would leave a ruined world in its wake.

I am still leery of Serge being absorbed by the Time Devourer. The game makes such a big deal about Serge being the one to cause the destruction of the future (again, curiously something he "has done" in the future). The language is very active and it seems too passive for Serge to just be absorbed by the Time Devourer, which in turn then destroys the future (in a manner that isn't intuitive, at the least).

Speaking of the Dead Sea, in Home World why does it suddenly start to exist in 1010 AD? If the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden is a sort of gateway to the future, and the future is changed, then shouldn't the whole history of the Sea of Eden be changed to the Dead Sea? Why is a changed future only effecting 10ish years?

Any ideas why the possibility of Serge being swallowed by the TD is larger than normal in the Dead Sea? Are the temporal and spacial disturbances surrounding the Dead Sea conducive to that sort of thing?

This might just be the result of the possible futures at that point; Serge knows enough to lead him to the action that would have him swallowed by the TD (or perhaps have him absorbed the TD, in a bit of a reverse) but he doesn't know enough to make it likely that he will make the right choice. The knowledge he has gather at that point might be a dangerous, rather than useful, amount.

EDIT: However, to note, the quote from the Ultimania book doesn't make much sense. That "vision of the future [was] born" when Serge was saved by Kid on Opassa Beach, as revealed by Miguel, not when Serge visited the Dead Sea. So if the Dead Sea exists as long as the posibility was high that Serge would be swallowed by the Time Devourer, then that posibility was high ever since the dimensions split. But before Serge crossed the dimensions, it would seem that the probability was actually rather low.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

My logic is not simply that the Time Devourer needs a soul (ala Schala).  I mean, Serge is powerful but ordinary as far as being a human goes.  But what makes Serge SPECIAL is the fact that he's the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame.  As such, we can control the Frozen Flame itself.  Remember the Frozen Flame itself is powerful enough to destroy and segregate the unified organic Dragon God into six separate entities - in fact, some claim that it has certain 'wish granting' properties.

By absorbing Serge, the Time Devourer would thus gain the powers of the Frozen Flame, as well.  This is because Serge can control the Frozen Flame (as it's Arbiter).  Although, it should be noted that Serge DOES NOT use the flame.

As such, Serge is ultimately the catalyst.  Had he not've come into the Frozen Flame, had he not've traveled to the Darkness of Time and attempted to use the Chrono Cross element, then things would be different.

[FaustWolf]

I'm unsure of the translation's quality; even one misunderstood/mistranslated word could totally change things given the convoluted spacetime stuff we're talking about, so perhaps it should be taken with a grain of salt. What's the Compendium's stance on the reliability of the pages from Ultimania translated thus far?

I agree that Serge simply being absorbed by the TD is a "passive" action, whereas the Chrono kids/ghosts definitely seem to attribute the world's destruction to an "active" action on Serge's part.

I'm especially intrigued by Thought's question regarding what it means for spacetime to be "devoured." I had believed it meant some far-out, metaphysical literal devouring of the spacetime continuum, but I could definitely see spacetime being "devoured" if the dreams of all those who live in 2300 AG cannot be realized due to Lavos'/TD's ultimate hold on the fates of all those who live in that time period. Which is, itself, a far-out, metaphysical concept. Wild.

EDIT: I just read Boo's new reply after I wrote this. Hmm, intriguing!


This is especially of interest to me:

By absorbing Serge, the Time Devourer would thus gain the powers of the Frozen Flame, as well.  This is because Serge can control the Frozen Flame (as it's Arbiter).  Although, it should be noted that Serge DOES NOT use the flame.

Now, being a Xenogears fan, I look at the Zohar and the Time Devourer as analogous to the Frozen Flame and Deus. Could the Frozen Flame be some sort of "power core" to the Time Devourer? And since Fei absorbed the powers of the Wave Existence/Zohar by coming into contact with it, could Serge absorb the powers of the Frozen Flame somehow by coming into contact with it? And then the TD is sort of reunited with its power core through Serge, or something?

We could, perhaps, note that Lavos destroyed Zeal after it came within a few feet of Schala, who was an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame if memory serves. But to assume that the TD/Lavos needs an Arbiter nearby to draw on the powers of the Frozen Flame, we would be stretching things quite a bit. Firstly, we would have to assume the TD needs Serge because he's the new Arbiter, and could not complete the world's destruction with Schala after Serge came in contact with the flame in 1006 AG (or at least not as quickly as 2300 AG). And, we would have to assume that Lavos had kept Schala around until 1999 AG when it exploded onto the world in the doomed CT timeline. Unless the TD is the only being that operates thus?

The idea of Lavos being separated from the Frozen Flame in 12,000BG upon its defeat - thus requiring the FF itself or an Arbiter to access its world-destructive powers as the TD - is well out of line with Compendium theory and most interpretations of game script, for the record. It is widely accepted that the FF split off of Lavos prior to entry into the Earth's atmosphere, and the Zealians evolved as they did because they came into contact with the FF, which had split off Lavos. See this thread for the two stances as to whether or not the FF had separated from Lavos upon re-entry or whether the Zealians could have evolved via their ancestors touching Lavos itself and not the FF (or could they have touched the FF while it was still "on" Lavos?).
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5086.0.html

Kato was involved in both CT and Xenogears, so that's why I've always suspected there might be some analogy between the Frozen Flame and the Zohar. If the Frozen Flame can grant wishes, it is, in essence, a Phenomenon Alteration Engine just like the Zohar. But, this is probably simplifying things too much. Make of it what you will.


EDIT AGAIN: In any case, Boo has made clear that his theory rests not upon Schala simply being "sucked dry" as I had interpreted it, but the fact that Schala might have lost her "Arbiter" status after Serge inherited it. (Is that a proper interpretation, Boo?) Thus, in Another World, no Arbiter existed at all, preventing the TD from being reunited with the Flame via the Arbiter. If Schala lost her Arbiter status in 1006AG, only in Home World would the TD have an Arbiter to provide whatever it needed to complete its plan.

So, question: When a new Arbiter touches the Flame, does the previous Arbiter lose his or her Arbiter status?

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Good question.  Although we don't have any in-game dialogue to support this, I'm going to say, "yes to a degree".  Schala, of course, we know was the Arbiter during her time in Zeal.  After the Ocean Palace Incident, who knows what exactly happened to the Frozen Flame.

Flash-forward to 2400 AD.  Chronopolis has the Frozen Flame and is using it.  So who is the Arbiter then?  My thought is in line with thinking that FATE itself was the Arbiter (even though it was a machine).  Looking at it that way, when Schala's electromagnetic storm shut Chronopolis down, Serge was able to come into contact with the Frozen Flame (seeing as how FATE was likewise powered down).  Serge was then granted Arbiter status (as FATE was not present).  When the storm subsided and Chronopolis' power returned, FATE realized that it had lost access to the Flame.  Thus, FATE's quest to find Serge and obtain Serge's body began.  Only by obtaining Serge's body could FATE once more become the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame.  Of course FATE's role was never to manipulate the Frozen Flame, in FACT, it is my belief that FATE was protecting the Frozen Flame was use by the enemies of Chronopolis - namely the Dragon God.

That way, when FATE was defeated, the safety mechanisms of the Frozen Flame were lost and the Arbiter status was lost once more.  Perhaps Harle became the Arbiter.  However it happened, when FATE was destroyed it allowed the Dragon God to reunify and bring forth the Terra Tower.

[Thought]

Why would the Frozen Flame, for its power, be important to the Time Devourer? The TD is Lavos, after all, and the Frozen Flame is merely the smallest of scraps of his shell, the equivalent of toenail clippings. Indeed, does the FF even have power of its own or is it just a means of channeling Lavos' power?

Might it rather just be that the Frozen Flame represents a part of the living Lavos that wasn't defeated and sent to the DBT? It seems to be sort of analogous to the One Ring; it represents not only Lavos' power but also his essence. Perhaps the Frozen Flame is what is tying him to reality and preventing him from being utterly absorbed by the DBT. The TD wouldn't need to absorb the power of the Frozen Flame, rather he'd need to use that as an anchor of sorts, keeping him from floating adrift in non-time.

Faust, to my understanding the compendium's stance is that the Ultimania guide itself (apart from the translation) is dubious in terms of analysis. Some of it directly contradicts the game or Kato. While useful, it can't be taken as canon (wait, if we are talking about canon, does that make Kato the Time Pope?). http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania.html

To note: While I wholeheartedly dislike the idea of Serge being passive in bring about the ruined future (which includes Serge getting absorbed by the TD), that may nonetheless be the case. I'd urge a more proactive model, but we have to go with that makes the most sense.

It seems unlikely that the Flame is the one that determines the uniqueness of an arbiter simply from the fact that Belthasar needed the Prometheus circuit to lock FATE out. Touching the Frozen Flame might grant a special connection, but being the Arbiter seems to be something Belthasar concocted. Without the Prometheus Circuit, the Frozen Flames power is still open for anyone to use. There could have been theoretically countless "arbiters" at any given time.

Schala, of course, we know was the Arbiter during her time in Zeal.

We do know that? I would have thought Queen Zeal was the Arbiter (if such a title can be applied to the time period without anachronism). It was the Queen, after all, who had her soul stolen by "that infamous immortal," which seems to be much in the same way that Lavos tried to absorb Schala in the DBT. Indeed, Lavos seemed to recognize the Queen as having a special status; it works with her (to an extent), while with everyone else it seems to ignore or attack.

It might do us well to consider what exactly an arbiter is. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the original language phrase might be or the connotations associated, but assuming "arbiter" is a good translation of the original meaning, then the word's meaning might reflect on Serge's role (and indeed the role of any arbiter).

Simply put, an arbiter arbitrates. He (or she) has been invested with the authority and power to judge. What authority to judge was Schala, Queen Zeal, or FATE given? Serge, on the other hand, is implied to have the power to judge between the Entity and Lavos (or life and destruction). This, of course, once again places the role of the acting agent on Serge (not the TD). This is in line with the Ghost Children and much of Chrono Cross. Serge is the one who has to judge... something. If the TD should live? That hardly seems like a decision, as if the TD lives then even Serge dies (he is hardly an impartial judge, then).

Perhaps it is closer to the use of the Chrono Cross. It has the power to divide and unify; by using that, Serge separated Schala and, perhaps, he was the one to consciously judge how the two dimensions would be joined. The Frozen Flame, then, was what gave him the power to use the Chrono Cross, but it was a result of Belthasar's machinations that he was in a position to judge.

The above also seems to be in line with a theme of the game; the dichotomy between the Entity and Lavos (Dragonians and Humans, Dragon Gods and Fate, life and death, etc). The Frozen Flame, the ultimate representation of Lavos' power available to a human, had to be used in conjunction with the Chrono Cross, the unification of the planet's power (and hence, the ultimate representation of the Entity's power available to a human), in order to effectively judge.

Indeed, that might be why the only way to get the "good" ending is by using the Chrono Cross; without it, Chrono's role as an arbiter isn't fulfilled.

[FaustWolf]

Interesting point about Queen Zeal being an Arbiter. Given her interaction with Lavos, this would seem the best way to go if we take the "soul stealing" thing literally (which I think is canonical). Schala, as an Arbiter, seemed to suffer different side effects than Zeal -- she seemed physically weakened in Lavos' presence, whereas Zeal just went crazy...another analogy to the One Ring perhaps, in which each Arbiter is affected slightly differently depending on intrinsic personal characteristics.

Has there been any previous discussion regarding Queen Zeal herself possibly being an Arbiter? Wild.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

If Queen Zeal was indeed the Arbiter, then what was Schala's role with the Frozen Flame and the Mammon Machine?  Was she simply a pawn?  After all, as the Arbiter, wouldn't Queen Zeal's magical prowess surpass even that of Schala?

[BROJ]

I'm especially intrigued by Thought's question regarding what it means for spacetime to be "devoured."

Maybe it looks like this:

Interesting point about Queen Zeal being an Arbiter. Given her interaction with Lavos, this would seem the best way to go if we take the "soul stealing" thing literally (which I think is canonical). Schala, as an Arbiter, seemed to suffer different side effects than Zeal -- she seemed physically weakened in Lavos' presence, whereas Zeal just went crazy...another analogy to the One Ring perhaps, in which each Arbiter is affected slightly differently depending on intrinsic personal characteristics.

Wow, that *does* sound a lot like LOTR.  But, then again like the ring, Lavos symbolizes power.

Has there been any previous discussion regarding Queen Zeal herself possibly being an Arbiter? Wild.

Not that I know of... But, I would say it's a reasonable conclusion, given the circumstances; however, I would say she's more likely to be an Arbiter to Lavos himself, rather than the FF, given she sat upon Lavos, a symbol of subservience. Also Lavos seemed to follow Zeal's commands to specifically attack Crono & co.

If Queen Zeal was indeed the Arbiter, then what was Schala's role with the Frozen Flame and the Mammon Machine?

Arbiter to the FF.