Serge question (most likely already thought of)

[ZealKnight]

Ok, so Serge existing makes Crono and Co. die to Lavos right? And another thing I realized is that Kid and Serge do not exist in the same world, do I still got it? When you free Schala she says something along the lines of the world going to the way it's suppose to be which should Serge dies at the age of 10 but, not only is he alive he still remembers everything.

So my question is: Is there anything to conclude that Lavos will now destroy the world again due to Serge's existence? Or maybe that is a wedding picture and Kid's existence prevents whatever was suppose to happen to make Crono and Co. die?

Just some stuff I was thinking about after I beat Chrono Cross again. I really want an answer for what happens after.

[Acacia Sgt]

It's not really him being alive, it's more of his life being saved that caused the dimensional split, creating a dimension where Crono's time traveling isn't done post-split.

[utunnels]

It's a problematic time line, since FATE doesn't exist in that time line, but El Nideo cultures do.

[chrono eric]

It's a problematic time line, since FATE doesn't exist in that time line, but El Nideo cultures do.

Not so. El Nido culture existing is easily accounted for and indeed predicted by TTI. And it's actually not a problematic timeline at all. All it requires is a little thinking.

Eske and I have had an extensive debate over this in this thread:

Time Devourer's Defeat Undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's Death?
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6571.0.html

And I have my own ending synopsis that is not "problematic" at all and indeed simpler than the Compendium's here:

Time Bastard Not Needed to Account for Serge's Memories

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6439.0.html


And here is a particularly useful excerpt from me and Eske's discussion for anyone that is interested that explains the restoration of the future in the Ideal Timeline. It is long, but to the point and easy to follow. This discussion originally evolved out of a conservation of mass/energy discussion and what whacky things happen around the split-point of the dimensions in Chrono Cross. The rest of the discussion in the thread followed what would happen after the ending of Chrono Cross in more detail:

***What is very important about this example is that it clearly shows two important things about the story of Cross: 1) Home World's future is destroyed because Crono and co.'s time travel event is not preserved in that timeline by TTI as predicted by the Compendium and 2) When the dimensions are re-unified Crono and co.'s time travel event is reinstated, thus saving the future again! It's perfect. The only minor problem with it is that Lavos' time travel event would not be preserved in Home World either, but if the pocket dimension theory falls apart (seems like it's going to), Lavos could be viewed as existing physically within the planet's core, in which case he would be duplicated at the split point and still emerge in Home World's future.

While the Compendium assumes that there is only one copy of Crono and co. that can save the world in only one dimension, we have demonstrated why this is so. We have also demonstrated using the same logic that in the reunified timeline Crono and co. would emerge once again to save the world as Schala predicts.

I'm going to try to simplify it even more so that it's easier to work with. The reason why I'm doing this is because I'm not so sure the conservation of energy rationale even applies to this in the first case. So let me greatly simplify the problem with the following hypothetical example of creating two dimensions from one and then unifying them again. In my example is a hypothetical universe composed of only three parts that exist in time.

There is one dimension, composed of a timeline that contains only three parts (for simplicity). Call them Part A, Part B, and Part C. It exists at Time Error 0.

At Time Error 1 the dimension (dimension K) is split at a point SP (Split Point). Before the split point the dimensions share the same timeline and after the split point the timelines diverge into two dimensions - X and Y. Dimension X is really just a continuation of K, and Part's Ax, Bx, and Cx = Parts A, B, and C but have been renamed for simplicity later on. Everything is duplicated after the split point, such that you have the following case:

                                                                                       -----> Dimension X (continuation of dimension K): Part Ax, Bx, Cx
At Time Error 1: Dimension K,  Parts A, B, C -------> SP ---->
                                                                                       -----> Dimension Y: Part Ay, By, Cy



In this example, matter and energy have not been conserved at all. Everything has been duplicated. This indicates that in the Chronoverse, the problem of conservation of energy and matter isn't really that important - only when dealing with time travel in a single dimension. Each dimension is like a self-contained universe, and matter-energy conservation is important within it but not between it.

Now, at Time Error 2 the dimensions are reunified at the reunification point (RP), which for comparison's sake (to Chrono Cross) necessarily equals the split point (SP). So RP=SP in time and you have this situation. Notice that the two dimensions only merge after the RP and before then can still technically be viewed as belonging to Dimension K.


At Time Error 2:  Dimension K,  Parts A, B, C --------> RP ------> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Cxy


Notice that in this case energy and matter have not been conserved either. The multiverse is back to the original amount of matter and energy it had, but it is still half as much as what existed at Time Error 1. The only thing that is different is that after the point RP the composite parts of the universe undergo a transition. They literally become different.

So, this clearly shows that matter/energy composition is not important when you are talking about multiple dimensions and probably not even for dimensional travel. It's only important for time travel within the dimensions.

This should help make both mine and Eske's theories easier to interpret. Let's do Eske's first and I'll do mine in a later post. Both theories attempt to understand what happens to TTI in the case of a dimensional reunification around the RP:

Eske's theory (schematic represenation, simplified to have the same format as above):

                                                                                              Dimension X:  Part Ax, Bx, Part C emerges at time x (only in this timeline)
Dimension K,  A + B, Part C time travels to the future  ---> SP ---->
                                                                                              Dimension Y: Part Ay, By (Cy is missing)

Here you have an example where Part C time travels to after the SP. Since dimension X is a continuation of Dimension K, Part C emerges there. Since everything was doubled after the SP, Part Cy is missing from dimension Y. You can see that matter/energy is conserved in Dimension K/X (the continuation of K), but not in Dimension Y as it has already been deemed unnecessary.

Now for the reunification:

Dimension K,  Parts A + B, Part C time travels to the future ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Part C emerges due to TTI

Now, since the RP = SP in  this example (and in Chrono Cross), the dimensions are reunified at the original point of the split and the Parts of the two dimensions that exist at that point become merged. Part C was not present in either dimension X or dimension Y at the SP so it does not merge. In the future dimension XY, part C emerges due to TTI.

In this example, dimension XY is not the same dimension as dimension K (this is what is implied in Cross). But this is a unique case in which dimension K and dimension XY appear to occupy a continuity on the same timeline. I think it's likely then that TTI and TB would be preserved in certain cases in accordance with the conservation of matter/energy.

For those interested, me and Eske's simple theory has profound implications that were elaborated on in the "Time Devourer's Defeat" thread. Also in that thread is a proof of Dimensional Travellers Immunity and Dimensional Bastard, and all of the theories taken together led us to believe that after 1010 A.D. many time travel events that occurred in one dimension but not the other would not be preserved after 1010 AD in the reunified timeline. Interestingly enough, this leads directly to the creation of an "ideal" series of events. It's quite an interesting read if you've got a lot of time to kill.

[utunnels]

I said problematic, which means the HW time line is not an usual time line. Perhaps it can be solved by a theory why El Nido cultures ever exist, but after all home world is not a real branch from original time line, but something like a knob.
Otherwise, this two time lines don't need to be unify at all, like DBT Magus said, there are countless futures. I don't think they have anything to do with each other, and perhaps there's no way to travel between them like in CC.

[chrono eric]

I said problematic, which means the HW time line is not an usual time line.

Ah, I read your original post as saying that the existence of El Nido in the timeline was problematic because FATE no longer exists and therefore neither should Chronopolis or the El Nido Islands.

Otherwise, this two time lines don't need to be unify at all, like DBT Magus said, there are countless futures. I don't think they have anything to do with each other, and perhaps there's no way to travel between them like in CC.

Yes, so it begs the question of why did the dimensions need to be unified? We've demonstrated that a theory of "they needed to be unified so that the future could be saved again" is 100% in line with script evidence, logic, and reason - but the concept that there are a near infinite number of possible realities would seem to render it moot, don't you think?

[ZealKnight]

Ok I'm sure that's completely correct but..... You need to be much more simplistic. I'm dyslexic so if I don't get something I'd have to ask you after you explained that one detail. For instance why is it that Crono and Co. lose to Lavos? You gave the reason but I still don't understand.

[chrono eric]

No prob  , I'll explain. It was as simplistic as I could make it, using two static parts and one part that "time travels" and using a letter designation to demonstrate what would happen. Part C could refer to anything that time travels from before the split point to after it, be it Crono and co. or a time travelling rock, it doesn't matter.

So in short, the first part shows what happens when the dimensions split into two, with dimension "X" (Another World) becoming a continuation of the original dimension and dimension "Y" (Home World) becoming a new one altogether which technically begins at the split point which is 1010 A.D. in Chrono Cross.

The second part shows that when the dimensions are refused, the parts in each dimension merge into one as is stated in the script of Chrono Cross - Parts Axy, Bxy, Cxy.

Now, the next part of the explanation has to do with the question - "but what happens if someone or something time travels from before the split point to after it?"

Well, as simply as I can put it, every thing in the universe/timeline/whatever you want to call it is duplicated at the split point and only at the split point. If something or someone time travels from before the split point to after it, it is basically removed from existence temporarily and reinstated into existence after the split point. They are not duplicated because the duplication only occurs at the split point, when the time traveller effectively did not exist in the universe. Because dimension "X" (Another World) is a continuation of the original dimension, and because we have just shown that there can only be one copy of them, the time travellers emerge in the future of dimension "X" but not in the future of dimension "Y" (Home World). So if the time travel event was Crono and co. saving the world from Lavos in 1999 A.D., the future would be saved in dimension X but not in dimension Y. Simple, right?

But look what happens in the last part when the dimensions are re-fused together. Chrono Cross suggests that the reunification point equals the split point in 1010 A.D. If this is so, then just like when the dimensions split and everything was divided at 1010 A.D., now everything that exists at 1010 A.D. will be reunified again. But just like in the previous example, the time travellers do not exist at 1010 A.D. so their time travel event is unaffected. They still appear in the future due to time traveller immunity and in the case of Crono and co. they still defeat Lavos in 1999 A.D. and save the world.

So you see, it was the nature of the dimensional split that caused the future of Home World to be destroyed, and it was Serge surviving that caused the dimensional split, so Serge can be said to be the direct cause of the ruined future. But he and he alone also has the power to save the future by reuniting the dimensions.

[utunnels]

Yes, so it begs the question of why did the dimensions need to be unified? We've demonstrated that a theory of "they needed to be unified so that the future could be saved again" is 100% in line with script evidence, logic, and reason - but the concept that there are a near infinite number of possible realities would seem to render it moot, don't you think?

I think the author didn't create the story to make us have to develop some strict theories to understand it, after all it is a game, the logic might be quite simple.
IMO DBT is something like a place out of all time lines, if you defeat DT there, you save all time lines.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure in orginal CT there's no such word called time line, branch, nor parallel world. The idea might not there already, what you do is just change the past to save our future.
So I don't think they will try to fix all of these to develop a complete new time line theory, from the information in Chronoplis, we know FATE did everything carefully to make the main flow of history unchanged, what if it did something wrong? We don't know, because in CT, they traveled back and forth in time, and didn't cause a "split". Perhaps Belthasar knows everthing about the principle, we should go ask him.

[Eske]

Ok I'm sure that's completely correct but..... You need to be much more simplistic. I'm dyslexic so if I don't get something I'd have to ask you after you explained that one detail. For instance why is it that Crono and Co. lose to Lavos? You gave the reason but I still don't understand.

Oh chrono eric, you didn't simplify it at all lol     Here is something I said in an earlier thread for ya ZealKnight:

The do share the same history but... In 1000AD there was only one dimension.

So, only one version of Crono and Co. could appear to defeat Lavos in 1999AD.

  Another world represents the original timeline in which Schala did not intervene and Serge died. 

So, Crono and Co. only appeared through the gate to 1999AD in Another World, leaving Home World for dead.

That's mah best shot.

[chrono eric]

Hey, I tried. I explained it verbally instead of schematically.

And that's right, but I would stress the point that there is only one copy of Crono and co. because the particular versions of them that time travelled to defeat Lavos did not exist in 1010 A.D. to be duplicated at the split point. Presumably if Crono and co. waited until after 1010 A.D., and then travelled to defeat Lavos in both dimensions, there would be no problem. 

[ZealKnight]

OH! So Serge didn't do anything really. Ok thanks Chrono Eric and Eske! So the unified time-line is nothing more than Serge living, right?

[chrono eric]

Yeah, Serge didn't do much except play the part of Belthesar's puppet perfectly  .

The unified timeline has Serge living, yes, but the timeline was unified because of the action of the Chrono Cross. Think of it like a "RESET" button on the timeline. The timeline is reset from 1010 AD at the moment of the original split onwards. Anything before 1010 AD is set in stone, hence Serge and Leena still meeting at Opassa Beach on that day. Anything after 1010 AD is up for grabs, however.

But we have shown that the future would be saved even with Serge living, and we have also shown that the series of events in the Ideal Timeline would likely indeed be "ideal".

Think about it, the differences between the two dimensions were the result of changes that happened after 1010 AD. They share the same history before then. Porre invades the El Nido archepelago and the Acacia Dragoons perish because Lynx manipulates them, but Lynx is likely not around in the Ideal Timeline and he is certainly not controlled by FATE anymore. So it seems likely to me that El Nido would not be invaded by Porre.

On the last page of the "Time Devourer's Defeat undoes the fall of Guardia" thread there is a large ending synopsis using the theory that me and Eske developed. You might find it interesting.

[ZealKnight]

Think about it, the differences between the two dimensions were the result of changes that happened after 1010 AD. They share the same history before then. Porre invades the El Nido archepelago and the Acacia Dragoons perish because Lynx manipulates them, but Lynx is likely not around in the Ideal Timeline and he is certainly not controlled by FATE anymore. So it seems likely to me that El Nido would not be invaded by Porre.

Ok, i haven't looked at it yet but i will soon. But I find this contradictory. Wouldn't FATE technically still be alive and if serge is alive then Lynx would still be alive. Everything after the beach was redone to be ideal. But then again ideal would mean that the dragons wouldn't be there right?

[chrono eric]

Well, the "Ideal timeline" as we were talking about was actually predicted by me and Eske's theories on certain instances of Time Traveller's Immunity and Time Bastard not being preserved after 1010 AD in the reunified timeline. "Ideal" is a general term in that the sequence of events seems to be better than that in both Home and Another World. Certain things are not predicted by our theory, such as the existence of the Dragon's in El Nido. And a very strange side effect of it is that potentially Terra Tower spontaneously emerges in 1010 AD. If you read that thread, you'll see what I mean.

Now as for the FATE situation, FATE would no longer exist within the Sea of Eden because Chronopolis doesn't exist. Chronopolis doesn't exist because Belthesar never found that Schala was bound to the Time Devourer and so he never set the chain of events in motion that would lead to Project Kid and Chronopolis being created.

However, TTI predicts that since the boundary of the Sea of Eden acts like a Gate, villagers would still appear there to create and colonize the El Nido archaepelago far in the past. When Serge was just a child in 1006 AD, he is still injured by the panther demon and likely still enters the Sea of Eden (but whether he does or not doesn't matter because he would be TB'd away anyways). And Serge and Wazuki still emerge from the boundary of the Sea of Eden due to TTI. This is the Serge that we see at Opassa Beach as Eske and I have shown that the Compendium's theory that Serge would be TB'd away in 1020 AD is complete bull.

As for Lynx, it is unknown what causes Wazuki to transform into him but it is known that this transformation occurs in 1010 AD, not in 1006 AD. If FATE is required to transform him into Lynx at this later date, then it is possible that he remains unchanged.

So to answer your question in short: FATE is dead, Serge is alive due to TTI, and Wazuki is alive due to TTI but he may or may not change into Lynx.