Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 116538 times)

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #630 on: September 18, 2009, 12:35:17 am »
Damn. All I can say is that I'm sorry you had to live through that and I don't know how you have the strength to try to live normally after it >_<. I'm with Uboa. It sounds like a complete nightmare, but it was real. I hope the experience hasn't left you with too much psychological trauma. Did you get any help after the experience happened and your parents found out about it?

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #631 on: September 18, 2009, 12:39:19 am »
Thank you for sharing your story and your perspective, Sajainta. Even though you said you were fine with it, I wasn't sure whether it's painful on your end to share this, so I actually felt kind of guilty about asking -- I hope that doesn't actually keep anyone from asking questions, should they ever come across someone who's been through something like this. It's important to know what's actually going on in the world, and while documentaries are good, there's no substitute for getting a first-hand account.

What's impressive is not only your ability to survive an experience like that, but the fact that you're so humble about it. I mean, I wasn't putting two and two together when you introduced the subject of slavery even though you basically prefaced it with what you'd written earlier. It's really inspiring how you're able to pick up the pieces and rebuild a more normal life after that nightmare.

EDIT: Oh, do you have any advice for spotting the kind of, uh, "slave houses" and other staging grounds enslaved people are kept in in the US? I'm sure everyone who lives near an impoverished city is cognizant of those broken down "message parlors" you see from time to time. Also, is there any way to spot a woman who's going through this in public? The articles indicated that they'll make quick runs to low-end convenience stores; while they seemed to be trained to fear asking for help, I wonder if there's any solid telltale clues. Or something.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 12:45:00 am by FaustWolf »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #632 on: September 18, 2009, 12:45:51 am »
I debated making this post, since inviting self-criticism always carries risks.

When I posted that springtime of youth explosion up there, it was more to comfort and cheer up myself than anyone else. Besides my growing progressivism and humanism, one of the reasons I'm motivated to immediate action against sexism is empathy with its "victims" (if that word isn't too denigrating). I learned last year that one of my friends was raped when she was 19 years old, and it was the kind of thing that I couldn't get out of my mind. For months after, it would lead to incredibly unpleasant thoughts and painful empathy; I'd sometimes cry about it, and it would come up especially if any TV shows or movies I was watching brought up or suggestively depicted rape. At some point, I felt, "fuck this; I don't have to sit here and suffer."

But this is an example of deriving motivation and energy from negativity, and I do it a lot. More than imagining some happy utopia, cases of religious and sexist abuse are what shock and angrily propel me towards action. If I'm ever down, or apathetic, all it takes is simply a visit to the atheism subreddit or reading/remembering sexist abuse to wake me back up. Broad strokes of emotion are what carry me closer to my own heavy strokes of action and activism. Still, this kind of negative motivation leads to a lot of wild passion and more negativity, and I notice it's bleeding out a lot. It's especially worse here, because I'm fucking sick of the Compendium not being updated, and I feel like my extremely meticulous and slow method of managing this interminable analysis update is investing so, so much work for so little gain. So not only am I bleeding out negativity towards sexist abuse, religion, and ignorance, but I'm also venting my own frustration with the Compendium, which I wish I could just "finish" and not have to consistently manage. The imperfections I'll have to accept also torture me, like the fact that we won't have Chrono Trigger DS location maps in the encyclopedia.

Bleeding negativity is not how this struggle is going to be won. While motivation from negativity can still be used for a lot of good, it's better kept burning internally, with one's ideals. The class I'm in about the current state of feminism across the world and getting a sense of what can be done has even spent the first three weeks stressing, stressing, and stressing again how important it is to be empathetically persuasive when trying to effect change. It's made so much sense, even if it's antithetical to my internal monologue, which is more like "here are the facts; you're either an idiot or you're not." What reminded me that I still have my own problem to work on was the topic of female circumcision in the last class, commonly called genital mutilation. And to me, it is mutilation, just like male circumcision. It's barbaric, cultural, religious ignorance and stupidity that needs to be fucking crucified. And my attitude towards it is one of "take no prisoners" imperiousness; of "I don't care if we disrupt your fucking culture; it ends now." But with a struggle like this, that's not the attitude that will most effectively create change among the people who are doing it. If you approach them with that attitude, they'll shut down and tune you out; no dialogue will take place. And so, even if it's mutilation in our hearts, and even if we hate it, it is more expedient for our goal of change to "respect" the cultural and traditional background around it in order to persuasively destroy it.

Perhaps even more than my desire to see religion abolished, I feel that dismantling sexism and male privilege will be the main social justice effort in my life. Atheism is already getting up to serious speed in the United States; the increased furor of the religious is only demonstrating that they're feeling threatened by new gains. Many atheists that I've seen on the Internet like to use the term, "the last under-represented minority" to describe themselves, since irreligion is political poison in the US. Well they're wrong; the last great under-represented minority in this world are females. And if I'm ever going to maximize my impact in illuminating humanity by eliminating injustice and inequality among the sexes, I need to be as effective as possible.

So I invite criticism and suggestions for my own argumentation. Let me know what works, and what doesn't, and what should be eliminated completely. I have a few things I know I should work on, but you guys are the most "intimately" exposed to my passions for this kind of thing, and are probably best equipped to provide criticism. I encourage any help. Because...



Determination. We'll break the curse. We'll end sexism in this world. A real dream never dies.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #633 on: September 18, 2009, 12:58:20 am »
Nah, self criticism can only endear people to you in the end. So few are willing to do it, so it's refreshing.  :)


(What kind of geeks are we that we're able to find a manga page to go with every situation? Hahaha.)


What are the exact mechanisms for making our society better? I've troped on pop cultural images quite a bit already, but what else is there? What's everyone's perspective on combating sexism as a practical matter?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 01:07:31 am by FaustWolf »

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #634 on: September 18, 2009, 01:03:03 am »
Instead of trying to abolish religion, get the religion behind the cause. If Christianity as a whole started deprecating sexist practices, you'd see an end to it in as little as 50 years.

Sajainta

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #635 on: September 18, 2009, 01:11:23 am »
Instead of trying to abolish religion, get the religion behind the cause. If Christianity as a whole started deprecating sexist practices, you'd see an end to it in as little as 50 years.

The problem with that is that many people see Christianity as an inherently sexist religion..

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #636 on: September 18, 2009, 01:36:38 am »
Instead of trying to abolish religion, get the religion behind the cause. If Christianity as a whole started deprecating sexist practices, you'd see an end to it in as little as 50 years.

There are many progressive Christians who, at least consciously, don't stand for sexism, and there are even conservative Christians who mean well in this area. Such people have been around for a long time. Yet sexism persists, and thrives, in large part because there continue to be innumerable sexist Christians, and the religion provides them with every excuse and authority they might require. I've met secular sexists, but sexism is so much more native, so much more comfortable a fit, so much more natural within a religious context. After all, these religions originally began as instruments of social control, and one of the major forms of social control turned out to be the subjugation of the female half of our species.

You can't wish that away. Christianity is damned on two fronts: The premise of an all-powerful deity who people use to justify their actions guarantees that Christianity will attract people who are looking to rationalize the very worst misbehavior. Their...wickedness, if I may borrow the word, washes outward and affects all the corners of Christianity, seeping into the customs and norms that are practiced universally within the godly community. Secondly, Christianity's history, doctrine, and organizational structure all serve to disenfranchise females. That cannot be ignored or excused; it's a part of the religion. This can be changed, and in some quarters it has been, but the religion's structure is still inherently a flawed structure. It can be modified, jury-rigged, patched up....as we have seen with many churches now welcoming divorcees, female heads of house, female careerists, female ministers and pastors...but the framework itself is bogus. If it were an airplane, it would never fly. There's a reason that more sexism comes out of the heavily religious parts of the country, that progress occurs first in the cities and other centers of culture where ideas can flow with less obstruction by the dominant religion. I am sorry Truth, but the way ahead does not lie inside Christianity, nor any of the Abrahamic religions, nor most religions in general. If you really want to do the most good, you won't patronize these social institutions which have committed tremendous injustice for as long as they have existed. If you faith is more important to you than anything else, then so be it, and I hope we can eventually look forward to your assistance in the cause of sexual equality, but to suggest that religion would be the ultimate engine of progress against sexism, when the reality is so strikingly the opposite, is ignorant.

It's not even that religion always actively schemes to perpetuate these injustices. A great deal of sexism is unwitting; if you confront such people, they will reject any claims that their behaviors or attitudes are sexist, and they will genuinely mean it. But they will be mistaken. Worse: Subtle sexism is not benign or insignificant. It may not be as glaring as "Women belong in the home!" but it still ruins or upsets people's lives and livelihoods. It's everywhere, from television to that book you read in church every Sunday. What I'm trying to say is that Christianity, like nearly all religions, is built up (in part) on sexism, and that aspect of it simply cannot be erased, and reforms can only go so far before the religion itself starts to dissolve and there is either a religious backlash (see: America in the 1970s) or else people go secular (see: Western Europe in the late 20th century). It's a part of the structure, a part of the "soul" if you will of Christianity, to promote sexism. A whole lot of the structural aspects of the religion--a whole lot--would have to be radically altered for this simple truth to change. Much of how our society regards females and males, both as groups without context, and in the context of their relationship to one another, is Christian in design. The idea that a female breast is less appropriate to show on television than a hundred bloody murders...that's a Christian sentiment. And it's just one of tens of thousands.

As a Christian, I suppose you will say that you want to reform your religion rather than abandon it, but, not being a Christian myself, I suffer from no such loyalties or obligations. Christianity is so objectively bad that it would be far easier to simply persuade people out of the religion. Christian activists have always played a role in the advancement of social justice--especially back in the times when it was an extreme taboo not to be a Christian. But it's no coincidence that, despite being outnumbered ten to one in the general population, the people at the heart of these causes are overwhelmingly secular.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #637 on: September 18, 2009, 02:01:05 am »
Sexism began far before the Bible and New Testament were recorded; far before Zoroaster even hopped onto the scene. Although I hardly have any data to back this supposition up, I imagine it's possible that sexism predates human understanding of a God, Goddess, gods, or a nebulous Great Spirit; the fact that men have employed religious institutions as practical instruments for codifying sexism tells me that if you did away with religion in the complete absence of addressing other problems that somehow crop up in the male psyche, some other abusive institution would just arise to take its place.

This is not meant to be a defense of religion as much as it is a plea to examine other issues that may also be concurrently at play, yet overlooked if we say sexism will be abolished concurrently with religion and then wash our hands of it. Men who run sex slave rings and become serial rapists can't even claim to have internalized Christian norms -- Jesus did not go around ramming his pickle into unwilling women of the day anywhere in the New Testament, and I suspect he isn't reported as doing so in the Book of Mormon.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 02:09:35 am by FaustWolf »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #638 on: September 18, 2009, 02:11:03 am »
...the fact that men have employed religious institutions as practical instruments for codifying sexism tells me that if you did away with religion in the complete absence of addressing other problems that somehow crop up in the male psyche, some other abusive institution would just arise to take its place.

Definitely. Religion is far from the only sexist social institution, and sexism itself originated in our animal past, long before the first social institution was ever conceived.

Nevertheless, any comparison between the civilization today with that of early humanity must necessarily be limited due to the extensive differences in today's lifestyles, technologies, interconnectedness, and education, versus those of the past. With regard to religion in particular, it rarely happens to be that a major social institution comes along that: A) is one of the principal sexist institutions in society; and B) can be almost entirely done away without completely retooling the way the rest of society works. ZeaLitY, for all his acerbic comments against religion, is basically on the right track: We can do a lot of good simply by relieving people of their religious mindset, and those very people, once they begin to see the world in more objective terms, can themselves become much more powerful forces for change, as they will no longer be held back by religious considerations. At the same time, as we're taking people out of the religion, we reduce the influence of the religion itself. It's a good place to focus our energies, albeit far from the only place worth focusing on.

Zephira

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #639 on: September 18, 2009, 02:21:21 am »
Just remember, while your arguments may hold water, they aren't necessarily the most effective way of accomplishing your goals, and they can be quite painful to both parties involved. The easiest way to get anything done is to respect your 'enemy'. If you enter an argument by immediately stating such strong opinions, those you are trying to convince will cover their ears and look away. You don't get anywhere by offending everyone, you must take into account someone's religious or ethnic sensibilities and ease them into your views slowly. As you coddle them with smaller issues and kind word, eventually they'll soften to your point of view, and you can chip away further.
When trying to change anyone's perspective, you have to be diplomatic. Your way might have worked on a couple of people, here on your own forum, but elsewhere you must be diplomatic. Tolerate that which you want destroyed, until you have the sway to do it. Work with people, not against them.

At least, that is my approach to arguments or engagements of any kind. I generally try to avoid confrontation, so I'm not that versed in it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 02:26:39 am by Zephira »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #640 on: September 18, 2009, 02:28:18 am »
For those of you who are interested in taking your passion to productive places, Bill Clinton gave an interview on The Daily Show tonight, wherein he touched on the centrality (to world progress) of his foundation's work toward empowering females of all ages:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-17-2009/exclusive---bill-clinton-extended-interview-pt--1
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-17-2009/exclusive---bill-clinton-extended-interview-pt--2

There are organizations out there which specialize in this very thing...too many to list! If you're serious about fighting sexism, this is an excellent place to start: All you need is drive, and these organizations can provide you with an outlet. I'm partial to Planned Parenthood, because they provide extensive low-cost, high-quality healthcare to women who need it, which is so important because feeling sick or in pain is one of the most overwhelming of all obstacles to progress and self-betterment. I also admire their resolve despite taking a considerable amount of heat from the conservatives due to the fact that they provide abortion care.

But, literally, there is a female rights organization for just about every aspect of life you can think of, both at home and abroad, from major organizations like the Peace Corps which are large enough to be able to focus on female rights among many other initiatives, to much smaller organizations like Women Helping Women that focus exclusively on female rights.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #641 on: September 18, 2009, 02:55:16 am »
I think Zephira's precisely right. An important question in social progress is, how does one get the most bang for one's buck?

For what it's worth, I think it's good to dissect specific institutional and doctrinal practices that produce clearly observable social harm, and perhaps an easier pill to swallow for the religious or self-proclaimed religious you're attempting to sway. Tell a Catholic to look inward on his or her institution and observe how the church is practically killing people in Latin America and Africa by proscribing condoms; this should give many a Westerner pause, and the revulsion is turned toward the church itself. Tell a Catholic that he or she won't be resurrected like Jesus, and the revulsion could be directed at the bearer of the message, muddling the goal of reforming sexist behaviors.

Still using the lack of condom use in Latin American Catholic communities as an example, the problem must be attacked from another angle as well: men are motivated to use Catholic doctrine as an excuse not to wear condoms, because men have this psychological thing about feeling vaginal sex completely, without plastic getting in the way. With modern condoms it could be a complete misconception, but given that, what is the origin of this thing? Why don't these men take into consideration the chance of contracting AIDS outside a monogamous relationship and then spreading it to their wives and future sex partners?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 03:02:10 am by FaustWolf »

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #642 on: September 18, 2009, 03:04:11 am »
Just remember, while your arguments may hold water, they aren't necessarily the most effective way of accomplishing your goals, and they can be quite painful to both parties involved. The easiest way to get anything done is to respect your 'enemy'. If you enter an argument by immediately stating such strong opinions, those you are trying to convince will cover their ears and look away. You don't get anywhere by offending everyone, you must take into account someone's religious or ethnic sensibilities and ease them into your views slowly. As you coddle them with smaller issues and kind word, eventually they'll soften to your point of view, and you can chip away further.
When trying to change anyone's perspective, you have to be diplomatic. Your way might have worked on a couple of people, here on your own forum, but elsewhere you must be diplomatic. Tolerate that which you want destroyed, until you have the sway to do it. Work with people, not against them.

At least, that is my approach to arguments or engagements of any kind. I generally try to avoid confrontation, so I'm not that versed in it.

QTF. I find it a little concerning how stressed out you apparently can get because you find it so difficult to achieve your goals. Sometimes it can take decades upon decades to succeed in large-scale social improvement such as sexism, and racism. I don't agree with your view on abolishing religion, but I find something like that not succeeding in your lifetime, if at all, so really the most you can do is to be as diplomatic as possible and try to educate people on how to wrong the rights in the world. I don't always appreciate how aggressive you can be in promoting your agenda. I guess in part of it was due to my anthropology education, which taught us to view cultural beliefs in as non-biased a mindset as possible (though I sometimes found this very difficult) and always view other cultures thorough the idea of "cultural relativism" rather than ethnocentrism. Though I guess it is passionate people like you who make it on the news...

I am very familiar with female genital mutilation as this was one of my professor's special focus of study when I was doing anthro (and she was one of the best profs in the program). It is a sick practice and so many young girls die from it, and those who do survive remain affected for basically the rest of their lives. The worst kind of female genital mutilation is called infibulation, where the clitoris is hacked off as well as some parts of the labia, I believe, and then the labia is sewn shut. This is very difficult to live with and if the girls remain in the community, it can be difficult to reverse. Many girls even live with it in the US and some organizations try to help girls reverse the procedure while helping to keep it secret from parents and community members.

Quote
And my attitude towards it is one of "take no prisoners" imperiousness; of "I don't care if we disrupt your fucking culture; it ends now." But with a struggle like this, that's not the attitude that will most effectively create change among the people who are doing it. If you approach them with that attitude, they'll shut down and tune you out; no dialogue will take place

Well at least you recognize this is the wrong attitude. This practice is primarily in Africa and I believe some Middle Eastern cultures. They generally don't care for westerns going to tell them their way is wrong. While I appreciate Alice Walker's (Color Purple author) stance on exposing FGM, I don't always think her approach is right. She actively goes to the women performing the procedure and tells them how evil it is. I don't think this is effective.

In other, more successful, scenarios there is a team of "educators" who communicate with villages and educate them as best as they can about the harmful effects of FGM, and there has been success. The village men are involved with the discussion, and the young girls are very vocal about how their friends have died from the procedures and why it must stop. In a documentary I watched, a village was able to change their practice and instead of the clitorectomy meaning their coming of age, they had some kind of new ceremony with bracelets instead.

So yeah, I view education and slow improvement with more regard than a "take no prisoners" attitude.


Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #643 on: September 18, 2009, 03:19:42 am »
Zaichik: I think you're mixing up Zephira with ZeaLitY. Admittedly, this happens often given their uncanny physical similarities:



The trick to telling them apart is to remember that, while ZeaLitY is tall, Zephira is about as big as a European cathedral. ^_^

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #644 on: September 18, 2009, 03:20:34 am »
Aw, nuts. Those are supposed to be side by side. *shakes fist at shoddy forum software*