Need help understanding a key plot point from Chrono Cross (SPOILERS)

[Rocky]

I have been a Chrono series fan for as long as it has existed (got Chrono Trigger in '96 and Chrono Cross in 2000 and have played through both many times).  I'm already pretty knowledgeable regarding the stories of both games, but I still struggle mightily in understanding some of the explanations given within the game of Chrono Cross.  I'm NOT here to criticize the story.  I just desperately want to understand it, so I am asking for help.  I ask here because of all the time and effort that the creators of this web site have put into understanding the series.  Until I can truly understand the game's story, I can't really enjoy it.  I've already read many of the deep articles here, in an effort to grasp it all.  However, those articles are filled with merely possible theories that, though admirable and potentially true, are still just theories - and not given by Masato Kato himself, the game's writer and thus owner of the story.  I'm asking for answers from the GAME ITSELF that are either stated directly or are very clear deductions based on what is stated.

Okay, so with that in mind... although I have a handful of questions, I'll focus on one that is key to the core of this game's story.  (SPOILERS THROUGHOUT REMAINDER OF POST)

At the end of the game, on Opassa Beach, you learn what I consider to be the biggest revelation - that Belthasar (Guru of Reason in CT, Prophet of Time in CC) orchestrated EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN THE GAME so as to lead Serge to this one point in time to save Schala and, in turn, the entire universe from being consumed by the Time Devourer.  That is a ridiculously gigantic amount of power granted to a single human being by the game's writer, and the game wants me to accept it - without explaining HOW one person could possibly control all of that.

Here's the in-game quote, taken from the script on this site:  "'Project Kid'... the time control project Belthasar planned out.  The whole project existed to lead you to this one, special point in time!  The founding of Chronopolis, the Time Crash, and the battle between FATE and the Dragon Gods... It was all coordinated."

In Chrono Trigger, the most Belthasar could do after being sent to the future was build a time machine - the Epoch.  And that took him the rest of his life to build.  And he merely left it, hoping someone with the power to fight Lavos (and open the sealed door) would find it.  Seems pretty limited, like any human would be.  So in Chrono Cross, with the only difference being that he is now sent to a saved future instead of a destroyed one, how is this same man able to know and do so much?  All he says to rectify this, in game, is:

"Lavos created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future!  There, I seized the opportunity to study the science of the future... I was then able to apply to that the knowledge I brought from my own era, including magic, which was long lost in the future.  Anyway, this led me to make huge progress in the research of time.  Well, that research led to the creation of Chronopolis and to the Time Crash..."

Just based on that, how could he even possibly KNOW that Schala and the Time Devourer were sent to the Darkness Beyond Time?  By definition, isn't that place "beyond time" and therefore beyond the reach of his "research of time"?  And then, he creates a time crash using a "Counter-Time Experiment" (not sure if the game actually explained what that is).  But how did he KNOW that Lavos would then use the time crash to pull Chronopolis into the past, and then that that would be counter-balanced by Dinopolis being pulling in from another dimension (both facts that were revealed by Belthasar himself in Terra Tower), and then etc. etc. (Fate and dragons battle, they use Serge in their struggle, Serge gets the Chrono Cross so he can save Schala).  How could he KNOW what different entities (Lavos, the planet, the Dragon God), all NOT within his control, would do?  (I accept that he could control the Fate part of it, since he created that system.)  He himself admits, in game, that he actually CAN'T know everything:

"I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the 'Neo Epoch.'  I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out."

"To learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans"?  "To see how things were turning out"?  If he didn't already know about what would happen with Chronopolis and Fate's plans, which he created, HOW COULD HE HAVE ORCHESTRATED EVERYTHING ELSE?  He had already caused the time crash by then, or Chronopolis and Fate wouldn't have even EXISTED in that era so he could check them out.

So how was this one human able to create a multi-history-encompassing plan that included mulitple times, multiple dimensions, and that was dependent on knowing the exact actions of many different entities that were not under his control, when he himself admits in game that he didn't already know how things were turning out with the things HE created?  This plan would require, not merely knowing the future, but knowing every effect that would result from every cause made by every creature along the way.  And again, he could control causes and effects regarding some HUMANS, who were under the control of the Fate computer, but not Lavos, the planet, and the Dragon God - they had unlimited free choice, didn't they?

And I'm not scrutinizing some small part of the game.  This is THE CORE of the story, so it should be explainable by the game itself.  The core of Chrono Trigger's story was basically Lavos falling to the planet, slowly destroying it, and the planet (or 'entity' - in game) taking actions (creating time gates) to allow some humans to remove the threat.  A fanciful tale, like any video game.  But at least explainable - in this made-up world, the planet is an entity with at least some control.  The core of Chrono Cross's story centers on one human being with seemingly far more powers than any other creature - more than the planet itself.

So please help me.  I repeat, my objective is NOT to criticize the game's plot.  Maybe I'm missing something big here.  I desperately want to understand it, if it can be understood.  Like I said, I just can't really enjoy something if I can't understand at least the main theme.  If the writer left some minor things unexplained, I'd be fine with that.  But this isn't minor at all - we're talking about the mechanic that drives the whole game.  Please help me understand it, using what the game tells us.  Thanks very, very much in advance.

[utunnels]

I repeat, my objective is NOT to criticize the game's plot.  Maybe I'm missing something big here.  

No, I don't think so. I doubt even Masato Kato himself didn't plan every single detail of Belthasar's huge project, but--

how is this same man able to know and do so much?

Hmm, perhaps, in the bleak feature of CT timeline, he had less resources, more specifically, he lacked of a super computer like Fate, which usually plays a critical important role in a physics research.  Even worse, he was all alone (perhaps the Nu could be a help, but still he's the only one had the knowledge).

Lavos created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future!

That sounds like Lavos even had a plan itself, doesn't it? Yeah, but no direct evidence.

"I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the 'Neo Epoch.'  I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out."

That is interesting, did Belthasar knew another 'himself' and the 'Epoch'? Or it is just a name.

If he didn't already know about what would happen with Chronopolis and Fate's plans, which he created, HOW COULD HE HAVE ORCHESTRATED EVERYTHING ELSE?

Heh, perhaps he didn't know Fate's plan. But Fate could know what would happen to Chronopolis and the introduction of Dinopolis. It wasn't metioned clearly how the research carried out, but it seems Fate played an important role. The super computer could simulate the course of history when certain conditions are changed. For example, they didn't have to go back into time to grab informations, they could simulate it (I know that is beyond modern science, but it is a game in which things can be more tolerable). For example, the Radical Dreamers dimension could be an experiment of Fate (heh, the staff of Chronopolis got bored and created a computer game than ran on Fate system).

[gatotsu911]

Maybe Belthasar just winged it.

[Rocky]

utunnels - That's true.  I did kind of underplay how big a difference it would be, being hurled into a completely different future.

And you bring up some, though far-fetched, valid ideas as to what this FATE computer could do - simulating the course of history when certain conditions are changed.  However, this is a quote from this site's Chrono Cross plot summary:

"Belthasar constructed and ran a computer called FATE."

HE constructed this seemingly omnipotent computer that could somehow predict the actions of Lavos, the planet, and the Dragon God, and every effect of such actions.  And he didn't even know the Dragon God or the dimension from which he came existed - how could he?

So it still comes back to Belthasar.  Even if the FATE system could somehow know all that, Belthasar BUILT that system.  So by the transitive property (yes, I'm a nerd), Belthasar HIMSELF must have been able to know all that.  Something you create can only know as much as you can, since you are the one who programmed it.  And as a mere human being who was presented with the same limitations as any other human being in Chrono Trigger, it seems inconsistent that he now has almost God-like knowledge.

In other words, if Kato had simply introduced some new being (like, God) that could simulate exactly what different sentient creatures would do - I might not like it, but at least it would make sense in the world that Kato created.  But to use a human character who was previously limited, and give him this power without explanation... isn't that inconsistent and difficult to just accept, given that this is the very foundation of the game?

Still, I'm willing to hear more arguments - I'd LIKE there to be an in-game answer to this.  I really do love the series overall.

And gatotsu - I actually like your explanation better.  And I would even accept it, if the odds of success of such a plan weren't so remote as to be deemed impossible (due to, at the very LEAST, counting on the existence of another dimension without ever having seen any evidence of one, and then predicting what would be in said dimension... it's beginning to sound like Belthasar was simply the writer of the game's story, and not a character within it).

[Acacia Sgt]

HE constructed this seemingly omnipotent computer that could somehow predict the actions of Lavos, the planet, and the Dragon God, and every effect of such actions.  And he didn't even know the Dragon God or the dimension from which he came existed - how could he?

So it still comes back to Belthasar.  Even if the FATE system could somehow know all that, Belthasar BUILT that system.  So by the transitive property (yes, I'm a nerd), Belthasar HIMSELF must have been able to know all that.  Something you create can only know as much as you can, since you are the one who programmed it.  And as a mere human being who was presented with the same limitations as any other human being in Chrono Trigger, it seems inconsistent that he now has almost God-like knowledge.

Actually, it's not exactly how it went. True, he built it, but, there are around 100 years until the Time Crash, then the 10,000 up to the game's plot. As the nature of Chronopolis to gather information about the dimension and such, and the whole time it was around, it means it wasn't Belthasar alone. Besides, the computer is self-aware, so it's no longer chained to what Belthasar knows. It can learn things on it's own. Just look how it was able to loophole it's way around the Prometheus Circuit and such, despite the programming behind it.

[TheMage]

Well Belthasar did have a bit of a god complex going on, but did he posess such powers? Nah. He is a guru of Zeal, and the builder of epoch, we know he's intelligent and he knows a decent amount about time travel. I think with the resources he had at Chronopolis he discovered the situation with Schala and Lavos. There he devised this complex plot, but yeah it is a little hard to believe one man could plan and know what each action and reaction would cause all to get Serge there at that one point.

I think it was through Fate. This is advanced technology he had his hands on, and computers in our time can already predict movements in say, chess. I think of it as a giant chess game. I think he programmed FATE to observe human behavior, through trial and error FATE could than predict what the probablility of Lavos doing this, or the Dragon God doing that was. Assuming they thought and acted like humans, which neither are so...well darn, there goes my theory lmao.


Unless Blethasar is the entity!!!!!! lol jk.

[utunnels]

Reminds me of SkyNet from Teminator series.

So by the transitive property (yes, I'm a nerd), Belthasar HIMSELF must have been able to know all that.

One can build a computer doesn't mean he can do better than a computer, in every field.
Even if Belthasar knows how to calculate, for example, what the world would be if a certain person got killed 100 years ago, he won't be able to get the result without the assistance of a computer, let alone a large skill of time and multiple dimensions (there must be numerous possibilities and they must choose one saftest route).

Besides, the computer is self-aware, so it's no longer chained to what Belthasar knows. It can learn things on it's own.

At least, Fate had been always working in the way it was programmed. He's the God of El Nido, protector of humans, and made the plan run properly in 10000 years. Yeah, he/it is self-aware, but that doesn't mean he's destined to betray.

[Kodokami]

The future Belthasar arrived in during Chrono Trigger is drastically different than that in Chrono Cross. In CT, Belthasar had little to no resources, and thus constructed everything from stratch. In CC, he had almost unlimited funding (through the central regime) and almost unlimited energy (through the Frozen Flame). He created Chronopolis, then the FATE supercomputer. Since whole facility was designed to study time, he soon learned of the Darkness Beyond Time. Determined to save Schala, Belthasar spied into other dimensions as well to find a cure; hence, the finding of the Chrono Cross in Dragonian lore. Using FATE's vast calculating skills, Belthasar could predict the best course of action to achieving his goal (and Prometheus could safeguard his plan from ever being discovered, even by FATE).

True, the whole of Project Kid seems outrageous. But Belthasar wasn't by himself. He had the backing of the central regime, the power of the Frozen Flame, Robo's trust, and the superior processing power of FATE. Nothing stood in his way. He understood the nature of Lavos (who would do anything to protect itself) and the Entity (who has always been on humanity's side).

I know a lot of this is, in fact, theory, but it's all based on evidence given in-game. Chrono Cross, despite being an extremely in-depth, emotional game (and one of my favorites), is severely malnourished in plot detail. Theories may be all we have, at least until a new Chrono game in made.

[Rocky]

First off, I appreciate everyone's views.  It's fun to discuss all this zany stuff.  

I guess something that needs to be addressed is the issue you've been raising:  Can a person create/design something that becomes self-aware and can eventually KNOW more than its designer?  Computers and machines in our day can perform calculations faster than us because humans built into them the number system and mathematic formulas.  They are more reliable in storing information because, unlike us, they are unable to think of new things and forget old things.  So yes, they can do certain things better and faster than us - but only because that information was already put there by a designer, so it can be instantly retrieved.  The chess computer can predict moves - because a designer programmed those moves and patterns of moves into it, and it can remember those moves better than a human mind which can think and forget.  Even Lucca said, in Chrono Trigger, "Machines aren't capable of evil.  Humans make them that way" or something like that.

Has any computer or machine ever starting thinking original thoughts?  Or started having spontaneous conversations that could go in any number of directions?  Has any computer ever KNOWN something that no human had ever known, introducing it to humanity's knowledge base?

Now, in a video game or movie, this can happen, because the writer can choose not to abide by the laws of reality.  If that's the case for Chrono Cross, fine.  I accept that.  It's just tough for that plot point to make sense to me because what this computer can do is WAY beyond anything close to what humans can do, like predicting how alien creatures would use their free will.

[Rocky]

Sorry, Kodokami.  Wrote my post while you submitted yours (took me a while...).

I really enjoyed your post.  I respect your appreciation for the depth of the game, and I appreciate you admitting that the game leaves a lot of details out.  I like the game too - it's just hard to appreciate the story when it feels incomplete and really hard to grasp.

Your explanation makes sense to me, except for a few things.  Again, the FATE computer seems like way more than just tremendous processing power.  And even though Belthasar could know the nature of Lavos and the planet in general, that doesn't mean he or FATE could predict how Lavos and the planet would specifically ACT.  You can't study someone's behavior and then know exactly what they'll do next - they still have free will.

Sorry... this all just blows my mind sometimes - I feel like I can't even fully express what I mean.  I guess it's just that no human or computer in real life has ever been able to specifically predict another person's actions with flawless consistency, and that's what it seems like this game is telling me to accept.  So if it wants me to accept a completely new concept, it should at least explain to me how it works.

[ZeaLitY]

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Belthasar_%28Planning_of%29.html

TL;DR: Frozen Flame, Neo-Epoch, FATE Supercomputer (with historical data + likely simulations), potentially Gaspar, potential other use of time observation (like the EoT), Zeal magic + futuristic technology, and so on.

[Rocky]

I read the article.  Let me start with a simple (possibly stupid) question.  Belthasar's purpose in all this was primarily to stop the Time Devourer from consuming all of space-time - secondarily to save Schala in the process, if possible.  Well, I know Crono and company were unable to beat the creature with brute force at the end of Chrono Trigger DS, but weren't Serge and company able to beat it with brute force?  I know it's not the ideal ending, but it still averted the ultimate catastrophe, didn't it?  (And yes, I read about the rumor that the game was originally meant to have a negative result of doing this.  But in the end, it didn't.)  So couldn't Belthasar have just arranged for someone in the already existing timeline to become powerful enough to beat it, without wrecking history with the time crash?  Seems like it would've been more responsible to sacrifice one life, rather than who knows how many the way he did it.

[Xenterex]

To address your question about using someone in the existing timeline, I've made several posts, particularly in the magic/tech thread about this particular factor to the gameplay.  My conclusion, thought still theoretical, is that Magus would probably be sufficient for doing the task without the dimensional-merging load.  That factor, was then of course "addressed" in Chrono DS by Magus simply having amnesia, with the presumption that in no given timeline does a malefactor come across Magus and use this to create a threat to time worse than what Magus was considered to be back in 900 AD of CT, or at least not a gaping flaw to prevent the completion of 'Project Kid'.

As far as trying to address the rest of your topical inquiry, pertaining to game evidence,  I can't comply with the specifically.  What I get from game evidence is that the answers lie outside of the game, through Kato himself.  And from my research into that,  what I get is a man who wrote an overly-convoluted dues ex machina story, topped off by a Mary Sue self-insert.  Yea, I that does seem pretty critical of the story, but I actually consider that a pretty objective analysis that only seems directly negative from a) my history of antagonizing cross and b) the tendency we have for having a negative association with Mary Sue, esp in conjunction with dues ex machina — we just tend to forgive that a little bit since its not technically a whole new character that saves the day in Cross, at least not by his name.

I certainly can understand your intent and wanting to address this stuff — i was much the same when Cross first came out.  Maybe if I'd know about the Compendium a lot sooner and could bounce ideas back and forth, I wouldn't have gotten embittered through my play experiences over the years in my quests for such answers.  Heck, my personal favorite for the game is how Belthasar essentially creates, and solves the universe's most complicated titration by figuring out he not only needs something that doesn't exist presently (and he's incapable of making despite his resources)  but that he needs two of them, and plans to cross-merge dimensions in a way to get both.  Oh, and he needs a completely different system of magic operating on the planet to get the plan to work.

[Kodokami]

FATE was not entirely programmed. It had an intelligence of its own, possibly stemming from the original Mother Brain.

Belthasar's purpose in all this was primarily to stop the Time Devourer from consuming all of space-time - secondarily to save Schala in the process, if possible.

I respectfully disagree. If Belthasar's primary goal was to defeat the Time Devourer, he could have nuked it beyond time. But he didn't do this, suggesting that saving the Schala was more important to his interests. If the overarching storyline proves true, then Belthasar risked the entire universe by birthing Serge, the final piece required for the Time Devourer's evolution, and then sending him to defeat it. Belthasar was no hero; he was a megalomaniac with his own agenda. He pulls off the ultimate Xanatos Roulette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette).

In Chrono Cross the entire plot is the result of multiple sides manipulating each other into doing their bidding. But it turns out, the manipulators are also being manipulated. And so are the manipulators of the manipulators. Now throw in Time Travel and AlternateUniverses and you see how overcomplicated this actually gets.

As ZeaLitY said, there are numerous reasons leading to Belthasar's success. It's just a matter of whether you accept the complex and convoluted storyline.

[ZeaLitY]

I read the article.  Let me start with a simple (possibly stupid) question.  Belthasar's purpose in all this was primarily to stop the Time Devourer from consuming all of space-time - secondarily to save Schala in the process, if possible.  Well, I know Crono and company were unable to beat the creature with brute force at the end of Chrono Trigger DS, but weren't Serge and company able to beat it with brute force?  I know it's not the ideal ending, but it still averted the ultimate catastrophe, didn't it?  (And yes, I read about the rumor that the game was originally meant to have a negative result of doing this.  But in the end, it didn't.)  So couldn't Belthasar have just arranged for someone in the already existing timeline to become powerful enough to beat it, without wrecking history with the time crash?  Seems like it would've been more responsible to sacrifice one life, rather than who knows how many the way he did it.

Yeah, it does. The ending of CT DS was a little maddening for that reason. Although Schala was technically right (the Chrono Cross was needed to free her, not brute force), it's not as if Magus should have given up.   At the end, he just needed a different "power"...

There's a lot of characterization to be taken out of Belthasar from all his machinations. Chrono'99 and GrayLensman were among the first to point out that he was kind of a megalomaniac with a god complex, and that El Nido was kind of his personal pet project at creating paradise. He seemed to have no qualms about involving who he did, even employing Robo to be sacrificed as the Prometheus Circuit. Guess we tried hard to expand on his wild grandeur in Crimson Echoes.