Poll

What inappropriate object would YOU plug into your car's hydrogen tank?

An electrical power cord
3 (15%)
Dick Cheney's pacemaker
3 (15%)
The world's last N-Gage
2 (10%)
Maine
2 (10%)
8 billion dollars, shrink-wrapped, on pallets
3 (15%)
Last shred of respect for democracy
5 (25%)
Alan Mullaly, the fucker
2 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Author Topic: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)  (Read 5082 times)

Kyronea

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2007, 07:15:07 pm »
You're one of those compromising, mediator types, aren't you? You don't have to apologize for everything, especially not for acting on your own nature. Relax a little, and be more confident with your own opinions.

Hell, if you grow a thick enough skin and can stand getting batted around a bit, you're welcome to jump right into these arguments as much as you want. It complicates things to argue on multiple fronts, but it's also more exciting... though if you don't feel like it, I understand. Most people wouldn't jump between a tiger and a bear.
Bang on there, Ramsus. It's a habit I've developed to compensate for how I used to act: I used to be quite the asshole, to put it mildly. I would always lash out towards people through sheer emotional immaturity and then act as the victim when they responded in kind, only fostering more of my foolish behavior. I've been overcompensating for such behavior now, but it is far preferable to how I used to be.

Anyway, to follow your advice...

We've got a huge situation on our hands, people, and it's called Peak Oil. As stated by Lord J, gasoline prices are artificially low, as are crude oil prices. That spike we had recently? That was a sign of the real price. Expect the price of a barrel of crude oil to leap to at least $150 dollars by the end of year, and for it to just continue going up.

Peak Oil is an easily understood phenomenon once the specifics are laid out. It has nothing to do with running out of oil, so much as it has to do with demand outstripping supply. Imagine a bell curve--this curve shows the supply of oil. Now imagine a diagonal line starting at the left side of the bell curve and proceeding steadily upwards. This is the demand. Now, what happens when that line goes above the curve?

Oil is an inelastic good, and for those of you who do not remember from high school economics what this means, it means it's not a good that can be easily sacrificed like, say, TVs. It's a good that is necessary regardless of price and as such demand rarely changes all that much with the price.

But how is so important, you ask? After all, it's just what we use to drive our cars with, right? Think again. First off, even if it just was the personal transportation that oil was used for, it is quite the enormous amount--easily millions of barrels per day. Oil is used in production of many goods, such as those very cars that are being driven--often the amount of oil used is equal to the amount it will consume across its entire lifetime. Plastics are also manufactured with oil...consider how many plastic items you have in your house right now? I've got two in front of me: a green cereal bowl and my trusty water bottle I take everywhere, though most probably the LCD monitor also used plastic.

Oil is also used heavily in the production of food as well as the transportation of food. All of our current methods of farming--especially the fertilizers--rely on oil. We transport our food over thousands of miles of road with huge trucks, a woefully inefficient method but one we've never sought to change.

Oil--and other fossil fuels--also form the backbone of our energy infrastructure. Take out all of the fossil fuel power plants and you're left with enough power for, say, maybe the state of Colorado, and that's about it.

Our way of life cannot go on. We rely too much on free energy, on the ability to simply waste at will, and so on. Consider the ridiculous amounts of energy, water, and fuel consumed by the city of Las Vegas in even one night! It is simply ludicrous. We will not be able to maintain it, quite simply. We must alter our way of life, and we must do it NOW.

First, we've got to quit relying on cars. You may mock this as the "back to bicycle era" method but quite honestly you're not going to have a choice and such a method is not as compromising as you might think.
Second, we need better mass transit: consider the size of the United States and the way it is set up. It's perfect for mass amounts of rail track everywhere. Trains are wonderful for so many things--once brought up to date with fuel economy standards, as is easy to do, they will be the most efficient method of shipping goods and of transporting people across this country.
Oh, and forget the planes. You're not going to have easy air travel anymore. Sorry, but that's just how it is.
We also need to replace our energy production plants with the next best thing when it comes to cheap energy, and that is nuclear fission. Get over it, hippies, it's a lot safer than you think and if you want to keep smoking those bongs in your home you're going to need energy for that home and that energy source will have to be nuclear fission. Nothing else is practical at the moment.

If we can break down our reliance on vehicles we will buy enough time to alter the rest of our infrastructure. Since personal transportation accounts for approximately 70% of our oil usage we can and we will be able to change the rest of what we do, such as farming, industrial production, and the like, but we need to do it now.  We have very little time to act...in a way, it's like that scene so often shown in movies or T.V. shows of people in a car that is precariously perched on a cliffside, about to fall. We can escape, but only if we let that car fall. If we do so in time, we will be able to give ourselves the time to research the methods we need...but if we don't, we won't have that necessary time.

But, no matter what happens, make no mistake: the United States will not remain a superpower for much longer. Get over it, uber-nationlists...your precious superiority over the rest of the world will not be maintained for much longer.

Is this sad? Yes. Is it something we don't want to here? For fuck's sake, absolutely yes...I know I hate hearing it. But is it reality? Yes, and we must face it. Our nation refuses to face reality on so many subjects...religion...global climate change...the rights of homosexuals...but if we don't face reality on this situation, we are, to put it mildly, screwed.

Ramsus

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2007, 10:13:24 pm »
I'm not too worried about the whole transportation thing. People may not like the reality in front of them, but when it starts to pinch their wallets, they'll start to accept change. In other words, sheer economic necessity will force the issue and make things happen, with or without popular support, and life will go on.

Personally, I look forward to electric cars/motorcycles/buses with high power supercapacitors instead of batteries, cheap and efficient solar panel roofing (that looks good, too), and super low-wattage LED light bulbs. I also look forward to more trains, electric street carts, and subway systems.

Does it bother me that in the future we'll have more reliance on nuclear power? Not really. Things might get interesting though. Not everyone has the ability to use nuclear power, putting a lot of other nations at a disadvantage once fossil fuels start to get really expensive. As such, there'll be a lot more economic pressure on those nations to experiment with nuclear energy, and that can easily lead to all sorts of problems.

I'm not bothered by losing some "superpower" status either. English is already establishing itself as a global language, so from a cultural perspective, we've almost become to the modern world what Greece or Rome was to the ancient world (the average Greek or Roman wasn't all that great, so don't cringe when you read that and think of the average American). Nothing lasts forever, so I feel comfortable knowing that we accomplished at least that much. I mean, thanks to that, if any of us become amazing world-class writers, our works are more likely to survive for thousands of years than those of some French or Japanese guy -- if only because there'll always be some dope trying to find something to read in order to learn English or just look smart and educated.

We're going to see a lot of change in our lifetime. We've already seen the change from VHS to DVD. Well, transportation won't be much different. In fact, one day we'll be looking back on this whole oil thing and wonder why we were so worried in the first place...

Kyronea

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2007, 10:32:31 pm »
I certainly hope so, Ramsus. The problem is that it might be too late to replace much of the infrastructure that needs replacing. We'd have to essentially rebuild everything from the ground up, replace all of our vehicles, build new rail track and so on and so forth...it will take time, money, and--unfortunately--a lot of oil to do so, and we might not have the time or the money OR the oil to do what needs to be done. We needed to have started this a long time ago, really.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2007, 11:35:27 pm »
How is the absence (or presence of a relatively low) tax artificial deflation of price? Taxes are an artificial inflation of price. Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against gas taxes at this point, but I want to know how you came to your conclusion on the price being "artificially" low.

Kyronea

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2007, 11:41:41 pm »
How is the absence (or presence of a relatively low) tax artificial deflation of price? Taxes are an artificial inflation of price. Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against gas taxes at this point, but I want to know how you came to your conclusion on the price being "artificially" low.
The price being artificially low has nothing to do with the taxes as much as it has to do with the oil companies setting the prices. They are being pushed down to prevent people from realizing there is a problem. In reality the prices would be higher than they are, by at least 60%.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2007, 03:56:50 am »
Two things...

First of all, short of another war I just don't see oil at $150 a barrel, not this year and probably not for years to come. "Peak Oil" is on its way, some say it's already here, but prices are not that easily derived. They're set by the markets, which is really just fancy-speak for saying rich assholes who think they know diddly squat will use their money to enforce what they think is the truth.

Second of all, for everyone here who is talking about the global environmental crisis to come, it's already here. Global warming and mass pollution are the one-two knockout punch of this epoch. The thing that gets me the most is how many species of animals we have driven extinct, and the many more whose territory we have limited. We're destroying many of the most advanced species on Earth, to our eternal shame. Why shame, when cold nature could have done the same on its own? Because we're not drones. We could have avoided all this destruction. There is good here--beauty, complexity--that we are too cheap and too stupid to treasure. To take a page from the Book of Ramsus and make a long story short, we have no fucking idea how much destruction entails the mass extinctions of species. It is the second most cruel thing we have ever done in the history of humankind.

It makes me mad, and that's not an emotion I uncork often.

Kyronea

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2007, 04:04:56 am »
I've been speaking with people who work in the energy industry, and I trust their judgement when it comes to Peak Oil. Now, am I worried too much? Am I one of the doom and gloom people who say civilization will crumble? Absolutely not. I don't see that happening either, not unless there IS a huge war over remaining resources, but that would be a supreme ultra worst case scenario right out of a B-movie and not truly reality.

The good thing about Peak Oil is that it will help drive down the damage global climate change will do...with the reduction in available oil we may, ironically, end up with a natural forcing of reduction of fossil fuel usage throughout the world. Frankly I hope it slows down as soon as possible. Research lately has brought to light the development of tool usage and morality--MORALITY!--among chimpanzees. That is a huge development...morality was one of the first real parts of true sentience among human beings. We're looking at a species that may in another hundred thousand years or so become the second full sentient species on the planet, and right now we're killing them! It's sickening.

And don't get me started on the destruction of natural environments, and the way people just ignore it as if we can do anything with no consequences. People rarely understand just how important ecological systems are to maintaining even our way of life on this planet...they hear "environmental protection" and think hippies who want all of humanity to return to the trees and thus dismiss any claims. It's stupid...so stupid.

Still...we may yet be lucky. We might pull a rabbit out of our hat, keep everything working well, keep Earth beautiful and green, and all will be right...but I don't see us being that lucky...not just yet, anyway.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2007, 04:33:44 am »
...cars in the States are huge.
From what I've learnt about America from various TV shows and cultural jokes, Americans love their stuff big. No Mac Minis and small fries for you!

Lord J Esq

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2007, 04:39:06 am »
Is that right, Mr. 72 Gigabyte Pr0n Collection? And you?

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2007, 05:46:07 am »
And me.

MsBlack

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2007, 09:19:26 am »
Link to quote so as not to bloat the thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4073.msg71019#msg71019

I agreed with most of your post, but what happens when the uranium runs out? If I recall correctly, the Plutonium by-product only lasts so long as well, but I'm not an expert on the nuclear fission/fusion process, so feel free to educate me.

On a lighter note: last paragraph, second sentence: "hear" not "here" >_>

Hadriel

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2007, 06:49:35 pm »
Hydrogen's hard to make cost-effective, though.  In order to do that, we'd have to switch our power over almost exclusively to nuclear for the reactors whose electricity creates said hydrogen; if we use fossil-fuel plants to produce hydrogen, that pretty much defeats the point.  And though keeping the environment healthy is obviously the way to go, Greenpeace hasn't done very damned much for that.  It's been blathering on and on about how NUCLEAR = OH GNOEZ! for the past thirty years, which has rendered the option a political implausibility to say the least.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2007, 08:34:35 pm »
In case you guys haven't heard hte news, the whole thing was a joke by Mullaly (sp) and Jimmy Kimmel that got out of hand.

Ramsus

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2007, 09:28:30 pm »
Hydrogen's hard to make cost-effective, though.  In order to do that, we'd have to switch our power over almost exclusively to nuclear for the reactors whose electricity creates said hydrogen; if we use fossil-fuel plants to produce hydrogen, that pretty much defeats the point.  And though keeping the environment healthy is obviously the way to go, Greenpeace hasn't done very damned much for that.  It's been blathering on and on about how NUCLEAR = OH GNOEZ! for the past thirty years, which has rendered the option a political implausibility to say the least.

What's this a reply to?

I don't have time to go read through everything a second time to check, but I think the only real mention of hydgrogen had to do with the original topic, and not its use as an alternative fuel.

New supercapacitor technologies and electric motors will probably make hydrogen unnecessary, even for a transportation system that centers on the automobile.


In case you guys haven't heard the news, the whole thing was a joke by Mullally and Jimmy Kimmel that got out of hand.

Josh already mentioned that the article was discredited.

Kyronea

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Re: Bush Nearly Blows Himself Up (Not Kidding)
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2007, 10:21:38 pm »
Link to quote so as not to bloat the thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4073.msg71019#msg71019

I agreed with most of your post, but what happens when the uranium runs out? If I recall correctly, the Plutonium by-product only lasts so long as well, but I'm not an expert on the nuclear fission/fusion process, so feel free to educate me.
You're right. We can extend it--and significantly reduce the environmental risk and potential damage--through the use of breeder reactors that reprocess used waste material and make it usable for power generation again, but there is a definite limit to the use of nuclear fission. That's the whole point, since it is a stopgap measure designed to give us the time to research a method of power generation that is completely renewable, rather than as a full on-replacement.

Quote
On a lighter note: last paragraph, second sentence: "hear" not "here" >_>
Thank you for catching that...my spelling can sometimes leave a bit to be desired, at least by those of us on the internet who actually b other to type correctly.

Quote from: Hadriel
Greenpeace hasn't done very damned much for that.  It's been blathering on and on about how NUCLEAR = OH GNOEZ! for the past thirty years, which has rendered the option a political implausibility to say the least.
That's part of my overall problem with Greenpeace...they have their hearts in the right place, but time and again they simply encourage lots of idiocy and general ignorance about the vast variety of subjects they protest, from nuclear power to genetically engineered food. Such ignorance is foolish, really. People have such an ingrained reaction to nuclear fission that they refuse to ever consider it, despite the fact that the aforementioned breeder reactors would render the potential environmental harm to somewhat less than what we're doing now with our fossil fuel power plants! They also tend to ignore the simple fact that their entire way of life requires we have this free energy easily produceable, and without it they'd be just as stuck as the people they rail against.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 10:25:03 pm by Kyronea »